Culling Healthy Animals

I've been waiting for a point to be brought up here, and it hasn't yet so I'll bring it up.

Ball pythons do not have the same hybridization problem that carpets have. Your issue with this hybrid problem (as it deals with BPs) is entirely null because it does not happen. There are the occasional hybrids (super ball, carpall, etc) but those animals are so few in number and very rare in the hobby that they arent the same problem. Also, i own a hybrid carpet and I'd never think of getting rid of her, or culling her just because she isnt a pure blood animal.. Perhaps this is a scenario where microchipping could come in handy. (there is a thread on this in the BP advanced husbandry section if you'd like to view it). But it would cost you money.

Shawn, i seriously can not comprehend why you came here (to the people that matter..?) to discuss this particular issue.

Culling perfectly healthy animals because they aren't up to your standards is bogus. If all your animals were used for feeders, sure, i get that. If you held some back to create more feeders (much like people who breed feeder rats hold back colors they like or rats with certain personalities or those they bond to) to create more feeder rats, sure. But you pick and choose favorites based on morph, which only translates to money. Like you've been told a hundred times through this thread, you are NOT going to find someone who agrees with you on this. Most of the people on this forum are here because they genuinely care about their animals and their lives, not making a quick buck. People that are found out to be lying or cheating scum bags have no place here and I believe the admins do a very good job of seeing to that. This forum is here to spread information to anyone who bothers to look for it or is directed here.

You are not a saint for this. And to me, you do VERY MUCH come off as "holier then thou" because you "cull 10% of your animals" to "save the hobby." You still haven't addressed the discrepancies with your "footprint." .. Culling 15-20 animals a year helps.....how?

I'm not sure what kind of validation you're looking for for this, but I dont think youre going to find it here.

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You want to justify killing of snakes by claiming that you're saving them from a miserable life, but you are the reason they have a life in the first place ... So if you're seriously that concerned about it, don't breed.

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Best thing I have read all day. That is all that needs to be said.

I have never seen "reasoning" that was as bad as what is in this thread. You bring their lives into existence KNOWINGLY only to end it before they even have a CHANCE, while their brothers and sisters are allowed to continue because they may not be as "low value". Because the 10% of snakes you "cull" are... well, like you said..... "unfortunate side effects". And absolutely, positively doomed no matter who you sell them to. Even though it is your fault in the first place that they ever had to be born to experience being "doomed" or ripped to shreds by a giant fish in the first place.

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Originally Posted by aSnakeLovinBabe

Best thing I have read all day. That is all that needs to be said.

I have never seen "reasoning" that was as bad as what is in this thread. You bring their lives into existence KNOWINGLY only to end it before they even have a CHANCE, while their brothers and sisters are allowed to continue because they may not be as "low value". Because the 10% of snakes you "cull" are... well, like you said..... "unfortunate side effects". And absolutely, positively doomed no matter who you sell them to. Even though it is your fault in the first place that they ever had to be born to experience being "doomed" or ripped to shreds by a giant fish in the first place.

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In all honesty the Arawana is probably the easier of the two deaths he offers the ugly ones. They just swallow things whole.

Monitors tend to beat and thrash their food before eating it, often giving a few hefty chomps for good measure.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

In all honesty the Arawana is probably the easier of the two deaths he offers the ugly ones. They just swallow things whole.

Monitors tend to beat and thrash their food before eating it, often giving a few hefty chomps for good measure.

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I would seriously rather be chomped than swallowed whole!! At least if I am chomped... it's done and over! Swallowed whole and that means I suffocate in stomach acid. :O I am looking to get an Arowana sometime soon.... won't be feeding it any sub-par baby garters though.

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Originally Posted by waltah!

If I had to choose to lose my iPhone or one of my normal males I would be losing that iPhone. Just sayin...

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this I know to be true.

Hm, I do have to say, the reason I'm keeping neat patterns or coat types (like Rex) in my mouse and rat colonies isn't really for my personal pleasure, but in case I need to sell some of them off to reduce the colonies over the winter season. If so, gold mice (satins) and pretty himalayan rex rats are going to be much easier to sell to pet stores as pets than brown or white ones would be. Their value is higher, which is why I'm breeding for those colors, and why the other colors get fed off first. I don't see a problem with this. The fact I can open a bin and go 'oh, cool' is a pretty minor part of it.

Don't get me wrong, I love my normal male ball pythons, and would never feed them off to a lizard or fish. If I were going to breed hybrid carpets (which I have no intention of doing, I just don't care for hybrids) I would chip the babies and roll it into their price tag. I wouldn't feed them to fish or lizards either. But to say that it's wrong to do so BECAUSE they're less desirable only due to their lower price tag doesn't seem like a valid moral argument. There is this weird division people make in their minds between 'livestock' and 'pets'. It's completely artificial. It makes no difference to the animals why you value some more than others, or IF you do. It makes no difference to the animals whether you consider them pets, food, or feeders, either. They don't care about your motivations. I don't think motivations are relevant here in the first place.

It's hypocritical to have one set of moral standards for feeders, and a completely and totally different set for pets. Animals are animals, and deserve respect no matter what your intended use for them is. That doesn't mean you should stop using feeders. It means you should not make a big division in your mind between them and your snakes. Keep them in clean conditions with clean water and decent food, and do your best to be humane. Don't be horrified if someone uses snakes as feeders, if it's NECESSARY. If you're going to tell him he is wrong to do feed off his culls, you have to come up with a better argument than 'they're pets, so it's wrong'. And a MUCH better argument than 'it's wrong to feed off only the ones you don't like or aren't worth as much because they're all equally alive'.

You feed your snakes rats because rats aren't worth as much as your snakes. If they were, you would probably be looking for an alternative food source pretty quick. That's a value judgment based on $ as well. Unless your moral reasoning is even more frivolous, such as "I like snakes better than rats". If you're going to tell this guy he's wrong, you've got to make a logical argument, not an emotional one that doesn't bear up to scrutiny.

I have not read this whole thread because IMO , I cant believe it lasted as long as it did. (this wont be politically correct and is not to offend but argueing like this and letting someone that has his views so different from the majority, with no chance of changing his views is retarded).
I can say from my own experiences that most people I know that have BP's as pets have the "UGLY normal one's" not the more expensive morphs.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Hm, I do have to say, the reason I'm keeping neat patterns or coat types (like Rex) in my mouse and rat colonies isn't really for my personal pleasure, but in case I need to sell some of them off to reduce the colonies over the winter season. If so, gold mice (satins) and pretty himalayan rex rats are going to be much easier to sell to pet stores as pets than brown or white ones would be. Their value is higher, which is why I'm breeding for those colors, and why the other colors get fed off first. I don't see a problem with this. The fact I can open a bin and go 'oh, cool' is a pretty minor part of it.

Don't get me wrong, I love my normal male ball pythons, and would never feed them off to a lizard or fish. If I were going to breed hybrid carpets (which I have no intention of doing, I just don't care for hybrids) I would chip the babies and roll it into their price tag. I wouldn't feed them to fish or lizards either. But to say that it's wrong to do so BECAUSE they're less desirable only due to their lower price tag doesn't seem like a valid moral argument. There is this weird division people make in their minds between 'livestock' and 'pets'. It's completely artificial. It makes no difference to the animals why you value some more than others, or IF you do. It makes no difference to the animals whether you consider them pets, food, or feeders, either. They don't care about your motivations. I don't think motivations are relevant here in the first place.

It's hypocritical to have one set of moral standards for feeders, and a completely and totally different set for pets. Animals are animals, and deserve respect no matter what your intended use for them is. That doesn't mean you should stop using feeders. It means you should not make a big division in your mind between them and your snakes. Keep them in clean conditions with clean water and decent food, and do your best to be humane. Don't be horrified if someone uses snakes as feeders, if it's NECESSARY. If you're going to tell him he is wrong to do feed off his culls, you have to come up with a better argument than 'they're pets, so it's wrong'. And a MUCH better argument than 'it's wrong to feed off only the ones you don't like or aren't worth as much because they're all equally alive'.

You feed your snakes rats because rats aren't worth as much as your snakes. If they were, you would probably be looking for an alternative food source pretty quick. That's a value judgment based on $ as well. Unless your moral reasoning is even more frivolous, such as "I like snakes better than rats". If you're going to tell this guy he's wrong, you've got to make a logical argument, not an emotional one that doesn't bear up to scrutiny.

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Huh? I'm pretty sure some of us made this distinction quite clear and used little to no emotion at all in providing that clarity.

He can feed all he wants to whomever he wants.

Telling us that he is ethically superior, brave and humble because he not only dares to do so but speaks publicly about it is crap. His reason is simple economics. It's cheaper and easier to feed off the ugly ones.

That too is fine. But don't hand me a shovel full of crap and tell me it's freshcut roses.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Hm, I do have to say, the reason I'm keeping neat patterns or coat types (like Rex) in my mouse and rat colonies isn't really for my personal pleasure, but in case I need to sell some of them off to reduce the colonies over the winter season. If so, gold mice (satins) and pretty himalayan rex rats are going to be much easier to sell to pet stores as pets than brown or white ones would be. Their value is higher, which is why I'm breeding for those colors, and why the other colors get fed off first. I don't see a problem with this. The fact I can open a bin and go 'oh, cool' is a pretty minor part of it.

Don't get me wrong, I love my normal male ball pythons, and would never feed them off to a lizard or fish. If I were going to breed hybrid carpets (which I have no intention of doing, I just don't care for hybrids) I would chip the babies and roll it into their price tag. I wouldn't feed them to fish or lizards either. But to say that it's wrong to do so BECAUSE they're less desirable only due to their lower price tag doesn't seem like a valid moral argument. There is this weird division people make in their minds between 'livestock' and 'pets'. It's completely artificial. It makes no difference to the animals why you value some more than others, or IF you do. It makes no difference to the animals whether you consider them pets, food, or feeders, either. They don't care about your motivations. I don't think motivations are relevant here in the first place.

It's hypocritical to have one set of moral standards for feeders, and a completely and totally different set for pets. Animals are animals, and deserve respect no matter what your intended use for them is. That doesn't mean you should stop using feeders. It means you should not make a big division in your mind between them and your snakes. Keep them in clean conditions with clean water and decent food, and do your best to be humane. Don't be horrified if someone uses snakes as feeders, if it's NECESSARY. If you're going to tell him he is wrong to do feed off his culls, you have to come up with a better argument than 'they're pets, so it's wrong'. And a MUCH better argument than 'it's wrong to feed off only the ones you don't like or aren't worth as much because they're all equally alive'.

You feed your snakes rats because rats aren't worth as much as your snakes. If they were, you would probably be looking for an alternative food source pretty quick. That's a value judgment based on $ as well. Unless your moral reasoning is even more frivolous, such as "I like snakes better than rats". If you're going to tell this guy he's wrong, you've got to make a logical argument, not an emotional one that doesn't bear up to scrutiny.

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That's the impression I got too, when I read these posts. Yes, the OP does this practice himself but I didn't get the impression that he said everyone else /should do it/--however, I did get the impression that many people were telling him he shouldn't and the reason was arbitrary in terms of talking about how it's for monetary gain vs how much he loved the animals vs the purpose of culling them--but no one really had a problem when the same principle applied to feeder animals.

Perhaps we were debating about completely different things to begin with.

No one here (unless somehow one of us is like totally awesomely omnipotent) can say there's one absolute truth--someone's truth could be someone else's lie, since the moment is gone and past, it comes down to "he says so because this happened" and "she says so because this happened."

There is also no right or wrong--there is only /choice/. We say something is "right" based on our own principles and values, but that isn't always the same as someone else's--who is anyone to say their principles are more right than another's?

Po-opinions, pro-decisions, without having someone tell you you're wrong or horrid or disgusting because they don't agree with your practices, isn't that what it means to have freedom?

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Originally Posted by p3titexburial

That's the impression I got too, when I read these posts. Yes, the OP does this practice himself but I didn't get the impression that he said everyone else /should do it/--however, I did get the impression that many people were telling him he shouldn't and the reason was arbitrary in terms of talking about how it's for monetary gain vs how much he loved the animals vs the purpose of culling them--but no one really had a problem when the same principle applied to feeder animals.

Perhaps we were debating about completely different things to begin with.

No one here (unless somehow one of us is like totally awesomely omnipotent) can say there's one absolute truth--someone's truth could be someone else's lie, since the moment is gone and past, it comes down to "he says so because this happened" and "she says so because this happened."

There is also no right or wrong--there is only /choice/. We say something is "right" based on our own principles and values, but that isn't always the same as someone else's--who is anyone to say their principles are more right than another's?

Po-opinions, pro-decisions, without having someone tell you you're wrong or horrid or disgusting because they don't agree with your practices, isn't that what it means to have freedom?

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So you would deny others the right to these strictures and boundaries?

Interesting.

That's not what I said or meant. Everyone has the right to their own "truths" and "rights" and "wrongs" and can view the world in terms of black and white should they /choose/ to.

But I abhor it when people condemn others for their choices. Yes, they may be base and low and disgusting to one person, but the person who does so have their own circumstances, their own minds and the consequences of their actions are theirs.

We talked about educating people and that's all we can really do--if one day we tell a child 2+2 is 4, show him why, and he still insists it's 3, what do we do? Yell at the kid into submission? If shown all the alternatives and given all the information, people still walk their own roads, do we have the right to take away their rights if it doesn't hurt anyone else?

I'm just asking people to reflect, question, empathize. Why do we always have to be in extremes?

Under no circumstances have I been rude or disrespectful, and I make a lot of effort to not treat anyone sarcastically even if I don't agree with them. I'd like the same respect in return.

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Originally Posted by p3titexburial

Under no circumstances have I been rude or disrespectful, and I make a lot of effort to not treat anyone sarcastically even if I don't agree with them. I'd like the same respect in return.

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Good luck with that.

Well, no...we explain why 2 + 2 is 4 again, and we make him work with little markers and number lines and other things until he actually understands that 2+2 IS 4. Because mathematics isn't an opinion, it never changes. And because he's a kid, and he needs to learn. If he can't learn basic math, he sure isn't going to get very far in life.

A lack of critical thinking is a huge part of the problem...well, in the entire world, actually.
Sure, people have the right to be illogical, but they are stupid if they exercise it. I have the right to recognize that. ;)

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Good luck with that.

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ya lol, online forum trolls are ruthless. i wouldnt get my hopes up either :gj:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Well, no...we explain why 2 + 2 is 4 again, and we make him work with little markers and number lines and other things until he actually understands that 2+2 IS 4. Because mathematics isn't an opinion, it never changes. And because he's a kid, and he needs to learn. If he can't learn basic math, he sure isn't going to get very far in life.

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perhaps math was a bad example, bc math IS about right and wrong :P theres no opinion involved.

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Originally Posted by p3titexburial

Yes, the OP does this practice himself but I didn't get the impression that he said everyone else /should do it/

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No, he just said that my normal males that I very carefully chose homes for will be dead in two years, and he's "saved" his "castoffs" from that fate.

My "dog in this fight" if you will, is that I don't happen to agree with him, that his fed off animals are better off because they were culled, as opposed to the choice that I make to place them in responsible pet homes.

Yeah, that and I'm not particularly sure whether he's joking so it's better not to take offense to something that could easily be misinterpreted. There's no tone in posts ^^;;.

It's not really about whether opinion in math is right or wrong but what to do in the case that someone is convinced it's that answer--you can (maybe, depending on how stubborn someone is) force them to tell you your answer is right, but whether they change their belief or not will be based on their experiences later and their choice to do so alone. Math was just the first thing that came to mind but not the best example.

The way the OP writes and composes his posts can really be confrontational and assuming and that's something that may or may not be intentional--and even though I don't agree with them personally, I can see where he's coming from and understand his right to make that decision--just like everyone else has to right to their own. But to go into a "I'm right" "no I'm right" argument gets nobody anywhere. I just thought it might be important to remember that.

I noticed there's not a lot of responses to breeders of other species of animals in terms of whether what they're doing is right or wrong when the practices are essentially the same. We do hold double standards sometimes, but life is life--if we're counting value by species, we've got /our/ math wrong.

I'm not saying we stand by and do nothing when something violates our principles, but after you've said everything you could and the other person still chooses to go their way, it may be seen as hypocritical if you try to force them to see things your way--to imply their intelligence, their ethics, morals, and general attitude as a human being subpar to your own based on one idea they have.

It's different, is all.

I really enjoy the fact that things can remain civil even if the topic gets heated, and it becomes a way to organize thoughts and broaden our horizons just a little bit. =)

Ok, I'll dip my toes in...

I can see using snakes as feeders. I have a coworker who keeps some species of snakes which only eat lizards, and I know people who own snakes that will only eat other snakes. I have no problem with this, or with killing any animal which will be used for food. I, personally, would probably eat snake meat if I were hungry.

I do have a problem with the OP's argument that, since there is a *chance* that an 'ugly' or low-value snake (let's stick with BPs only and use normal males as the 'uglies' here) may suffer neglect and abuse, that the best solution is to kill these potentially unwanted snakes without going to any effort to try and find them homes. Although I don't have a problem with him feeding these snakes to other animals, I must disagree that this is the 'best' fate for them. In eighth grade, I bought my first snake. It was- guess what!- a normal male ball python. 10 years later I still have that snake, and I plan on keeping him for the rest of his natural life span. The OP would have (according to his logic) killed this snake because there was a chance, increased by the fact that I was a first-time snake owner, and a child, that I would neglect or abuse the snake once the 'new pet' factor wore off, or pass it off to someone else who would. He would have made this judgment based on no personal knowledge about me, with only his general lack of faith in humanity as a guideline. *This* is what I have a problem with. Sure, there are probably people who buy a cheap snake and neglect/abuse/abandon it when they lose interest. There are also people who get a cheap snake and because of that purchase, become interested in snakes for the rest of their lives, and keep that first snake very well for the rest of *its* life. The same could be said of cheap cats, or cheap dogs, or any 'cheap' animal. Does that mean we should euthanize every low-value animal because it *might* be abused, based on our own prejudices about other people, without ever giving the animal, or the person, a chance? ....I'll let ya'll answer that one.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I wouldn't feed them to fish or lizards either. But to say that it's wrong to do so BECAUSE they're less desirable only due to their lower price tag doesn't seem like a valid moral argument.

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We've heard that they're being killed and used as feeders, but then we heard that the OP actually bought a lizard for the sole purpose of eating the "lesser valued" animals he produced.

We've heard that the OP feels he has to kill these animals to save them from a life of abuse, neglect, and misery.

We've heard that the OP feels that releasing these animals into the pet trade will "muddy" up a gene pool so in order to prevent that, they must be killed.

We've heard that the OP feels that killing "cheap" animals is imperative in order to reduce the hobby/businesses "footprint" and keep law makers off of our backs.

And finally, what we didn't hear is this gem (from the OP's own message board posted back in April of 09)

"This year, I expect to produce up to a couple of dozen normal appearing, IJ/Jag siblings, Het for Granite hybrids. Although they will be completely healthy, I think I am going to feed them all to my arrowanna at my office. No, I am not kidding. Why? I honestly do think that they will eventually be misrepresented as pure carpets, which they are not, and because they carry a gene that is desirable, this is more likely to occur than not. So, to prevent this ultimate eventuality, I am going to cull each and every one of them. It seems to me that the siblings that are hybrids will cause more problems than they are worth down the road, and I honestly would rather cull them than sell them. I understand that ultimately, this is a multiple thousand dollar decision, but at the end of the day, I think it's important to lead by example when I think something is right. And I think selling Mutt's that are very likely to do damage is something I no longer want to do." -ShawnC

I more consider [my snakes] as the basis for a hobby, and something to work with. Something to refine, and perfect. I want to perfect a high percentage Jungle granite. I want to perfect a high percentage IJ/Jag granite, but in order to get there, I'll need to produce literally hundreds of spin off normal sibling animals that will do alot of harm, and flood the market with essentially, what I would consider very poor quality snakes that will further damage carpet pythons in general. I dont' want to do that, and I am willing to sacrifice lots of baby snakes to keep that from happening. -ShawnC

I personally enjoy these gems:

"more problems than they are worth" -ShawnC

"this is a multiple thousand dollar decision" - ShawnC

"important to lead by example" - ShawnC


It has nothing to do with using these animals as feeders ... that's just some sugar coated cover story to make people feel better about his decision to breed animals that will produce so-called genetically toxic "by-product" and kill them ... this is about protecting the OPs investment animals.

I understand that an argument can be made that killing rodents is also in a sense protecting an investment, but my question is if the next step after killing rodents is killing normal siblings or "genetic mutts", what's the step after that? Will we one day be advocating the killing of mousers? Or female ball pythons that don't make it to 1500 grams in 18 months? Or males that don't breed at six months of age? For once we decide that killing certain animals is "good for the hobby", you can't stuff that back into the box.

Blessings,

-adam

This is what upsets me most. This whole time he has been passing this off as a noble cause, and or being responsible. What it all actually amounts to the OP profiting off of hybridization and line breeding.
Once again, my question is asked. If it is so harmful for this hobby to produce these hybrids why even do it??? Especially when it leads to so many healthy animals being culled.

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Originally Posted by accidental777

This is what upsets me most. This whole time he has been passing this off as a noble cause, and or being responsible. What it all actually amounts to the OP profiting off of hybridization and line breeding.
Once again, my question is asked. If it is so harmful for this hobby to produce these hybrids why even do it??? Especially when it leads to so many healthy animals being culled.

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Actually, he was TRYING to pass it off as noble, but lacking honor, honesty and integrity, he failed. Miserably.

You notice he hasn't been back since he got his fanny whacked a couple of days ago.

The guy's a turd, through and through and he didn't fool ANYONE.

Except maybe himself, and really, how hard is it to fool a stupid person?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Actually, he was TRYING to pass it off as noble, but lacking honor, honesty and integrity, he failed. Miserably.

You notice he hasn't been back since he got his fanny whacked a couple of days ago.

The guy's a turd, through and through and he didn't fool ANYONE.

Except maybe himself, and really, how hard is it to fool a stupid person?

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wow lol, this post is a sick BURN

i had to add it to my notepad of pwned.

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Originally Posted by p3titexburial

Math was just the first thing that came to mind but not the best example.

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thats ALL i was saying :gj:

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Originally Posted by p3titexburial

But to go into a "I'm right" "no I'm right" argument gets nobody anywhere. I just thought it might be important to remember that.

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the "im right" "no im right" would be a debate, which the OP invited:

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Let me first explain that I am not trying to start any fights, but I am trying to get some open, and honest debate going on a topic that I feel is long overdue in our Hobby.

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I guess I meant that he was trying to convince everyone that he was being noble or responsible. I have seen people doing this sort of thing for many years with fish, but it shocked and disgusted me a little more with the hybrid pythons.
I understand the curiosity in wanting to know what happens when pairing certain animals, but when you create those animals you are responsible for them.
I also find it interesting that he waited sooooo long to mention that he was hybridizing animals. I just think maybe he should have been a little more upfront and honest about the whole situation. It seems there were a few facts left out.

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Originally Posted by p3titexburial

Yeah, that and I'm not particularly sure whether he's joking so it's better not to take offense to something that could easily be misinterpreted. There's no tone in posts ^^;;.

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The fact that he's repeated his belief that low valued animals will be neglected in a pet home, and suffer a fate far worse than being culled, many times throughout this thread would lead to the logical conclusion that he was not joking.

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I'm not saying we stand by and do nothing when something violates our principles, but after you've said everything you could and the other person still chooses to go their way, it may be seen as hypocritical if you try to force them to see things your way--to imply their intelligence, their ethics, morals, and general attitude as a human being subpar to your own based on one idea they have.

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And has he not done the same thing?

Petco sells or has sold normal color phase ball pythons for $29.99. It will cost more to house the snake properly than the cost of the snake. I don't think some first time snake keepers realize this. It's cool and I can afford that low price. Not making sense: how about when they sell ball pythons for $19.99. Will all of those "cheap" snakes get proper care? Most people on this forum have seen normals going for $10 at expos. Do they get proper care? We hope so.
Interesting thread.

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Originally Posted by Jason Bowden

Petco sells or has sold normal color phase ball pythons for $29.99. It will cost more to house the snake properly than the cost of the snake. I don't think some first time snake keepers realize this. It's cool and I can afford that low price. Not making sense: how about when they sell ball pythons for $19.99. Will all of those "cheap" snakes get proper care? Most people on this forum have seen normals going for $10 at expos. Do they get proper care? We hope so.
Interesting thread.

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I know people that have cats that were free or $15 that will spend $30 for a cat sweater and a $100 for an automated litter box....just sayin.
I'm sure most of those people buying those $29.99 normals are also being sold tons of overpriced husbandry items right off the bat anyway.

Exactly--the cost of the animal is irrelevent, it's about peoples' attitudes toward that animal. The only way to fix that is education.

PetCo may sell baby ball pythons that low somewhere, or perhaps on sale, but locally they are at least $60 right now.
A decent setup is more like $120. PetCo will certainly try to sell them one that costs more than that. I'm not saying they're good guys, they tend to forget important things like TEMPERATURE CONTROLLERS, but it's still up to a prospective pet owner to read up on what is needed.

By the way, there is no logical reason to be ok with treating fish cruelly, and not ok with treating reptiles cruelly. The primary difference between them is lungs versus gills, not mental capacity. Fish are definitely getting the short end of the stick in life.

Yeah.....fish get treated pretty badly. I wish I could change it, and I try the best I can to do so by trying to properly educate people. It is a loss 90% of the time. People don't learn until they flush a few fish.
My favorite fish is a hybrid, he is 9 inches long, and likes attention. Nothing short of sticking his head up out of the water for a pat on his head. He makes a great fish ambassador, every time people come over and get to pet or interact with him, it leaves a lasting impression.
I think the reptile world has it ten times as hard. For every ten good guys, it seems like there is one bad or irresponsible one that ruins it for them. I guess that means that we all just have to try twice as hard to be positive examples.
As far as the OP is concerned, there are far better ways to hybridize his animals and still get what he wants. I believe it was mentioned in another post that these "mutts" or "ugly animals" could be micro chipped. Or maybe he could just do a better job of screening his potential customers. I think if he is going through the hassle of breeding these animals that he should at least have enough respect to find them a proper home if he can not provide it for them.
Once again, they are his animals, he has the right to do with them as he sees fit. I just don't see why there can't be some way to do this better for the sake of the animals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

The fact that he's repeated his belief that low valued animals will be neglected in a pet home, and suffer a fate far worse than being culled, many times throughout this thread would lead to the logical conclusion that he was not joking.




And has he not done the same thing?

---

Woah, I was referring to H00blah's post after I was told "good luck with that." since it could be taken both ways.

I'm pretty sure the OP's not joking.

Ah, alright, I see where everyone's going now--it's not more so his actions that's unreasonable but his reasons which can't be tolerated. I was looking more towards why his actions were so repulsive when there are acceptable examples all over the world. Gotcha.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by p3titexburial

Ah, alright, I see where everyone's going now--it's not more so his actions that's unreasonable but his reasons which can't be tolerated. I was looking more towards why his actions were so repulsive when there are acceptable examples all over the world. Gotcha.

---

Exactly. He acquired the animals to feed off his un-desireable snakes to when he made the decision to "save" them from what he considers a far worse fate (a pet home). It wasn't a matter of creating these animals to be feeders, he acquired other animals in order to dispose of his undesireable offspring.

However, I think after not receiving much support on his own forum for this same idea, he then decided to justify his reasons for feeding off the "toxic byproduct" of his hybrid breeding, by claiming they would be neglected and abused as pets, therefore, becoming feeders was a far better fate for them.

But then he flips from the well-being of the animal to wanting to keep them out of the breeding pool and reducing the "footprint" of these unfortunate "byproducts" of his breedings. However, as many people asked him on his own forum, and I might have missed him answering - if his reasons behind the culling are really so "noble and honorable" as he wants us to believe, why doesn't he stop creating these hybrids and thus creating these "mutts" as he refers to them, and buy the animals he wants to add to his collection from other breeders?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

However, as many people asked him on his own forum, and I might have missed him answering - if his reasons behind the culling are really so "noble and honorable" as he wants us to believe, why doesn't he stop creating these hybrids and thus creating these "mutts" as he refers to them, and buy the animals he wants to add to his collection from other breeders?

---

That would by necessity be supporting the creation of the same problem he's complaining about, as it would just mean that he was buying from someone who's doing the same thing. I agree with your overall stance (and once again, what you do with your "low-value" babies is AWESOME), but this question was logically inconsistent, as buying the hoped-for end result of his breedings rather than doing the breedings himself would only take the process out of his control, rather than actually stopping it. Many "mutts" would still be created in order for him to acquire an albino granite jag carpet python (3-subspecies double recessive co-dom, if that's what he's after).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

Exactly. He acquired the animals to feed off his un-desireable snakes to when he made the decision to "save" them from what he considers a far worse fate (a pet home). It wasn't a matter of creating these animals to be feeders, he acquired other animals in order to dispose of his undesireable offspring.

However, I think after not receiving much support on his own forum for this same idea, he then decided to justify his reasons for feeding off the "toxic byproduct" of his hybrid breeding, by claiming they would be neglected and abused as pets, therefore, becoming feeders was a far better fate for them.

But then he flips from the well-being of the animal to wanting to keep them out of the breeding pool and reducing the "footprint" of these unfortunate "byproducts" of his breedings. However, as many people asked him on his own forum, and I might have missed him answering - if his reasons behind the culling are really so "noble and honorable" as he wants us to believe, why doesn't he stop creating these hybrids and thus creating these "mutts" as he refers to them, and buy the animals he wants to add to his collection from other breeders?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by olstyn

That would by necessity be supporting the creation of the same problem he's complaining about, as it would just mean that he was buying from someone who's doing the same thing. I agree with your overall stance (and once again, what you do with your "low-value" babies is AWESOME), but this question was logically inconsistent, as buying the hoped-for end result of his breedings rather than doing the breedings himself would only take the process out of his control, rather than actually stopping it. Many "mutts" would still be created in order for him to acquire an albino granite jag carpet python (3-subspecies double recessive co-dom, if that's what he's after).

---

It may be supporting but it is not contributing.

To me, culling healthy animals, should not be resorted to. I don't like the idea of just unloading your offspring by culling. There could be an entry-level hobbyist, or a low-budget person who can't afford a more-expensive morph, who would take your unwanted animals as an adoption. I had several normals befoer we moved, who were not going to be big money-earners; they were normal males. I was able to find an awesome guy locally to take them in; I trusted the adopter, and it was a win-win, because he just wanted some BPs as pets; nothing fancy for breeding. If culling were acceptable; would it have been permissable for me, to just kill-off my healthy males because I no longer wanted them? Wow; if people did that with dogs and cats, they'd possibly be jailed!

I would at least make the effort to find a decent adoptee.Even if it's no $ gain on my part, I could go to bed knowing that that day, I made a snake-wanting human happy, and got a snake into a good home. Killing-off should be reserved for hopelessly ill or suffering animals.

I should add: adoptees should be screened and quizzed. I am also not a fan of unloading unwanted animals onto low-income people who "can't afford to buy one for cash." They also can't afford potential vet bills.. the shoe has to fit, IMO, for an adoption.

As for the emotional aspect of this: I am a human, and I have emotions. To me, killing off a healthy animal who could have a chance at a better life somewhere else, feels Wrong.

The feeder aspect brings to light some other thoughts of mine that I will post about shortly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

It may be supporting but it is not contributing.

---

By buying combo morph animals, he would be creating additional demand for them, thus contributing to the "problem" of "mutt" offspring production.

I'm beginning to get the feeling that you just enjoy antagonizing people, and have chosen me as your new target since the OP seems to have vacated the premises. Try to at least remember that while I've disagreed with you on some of the finer points, we're *basically* on the same side here.

Somebody will buy your animals... if not, lower the price. Simple as that.

Nothing wrong with feeding a cobra some extra normal baby ball pythons, but I dont feel theres any *need* for the actual methodical "culling" of snakes.

I may have missed this info after 24 pages of this thread... but what is this guy doing business as? Or even, what is his name? Where is this forum he has that everybody is referring to? I just wanted to know because we might be purchasing another snake within the next 2 years and I want to be sure I don't get one from him.

I'm pretty disgusted at his allegation that just because we don't spend a lot of money on our snakes that our snakes would be dead in 2 years. You tell my 8-year-old that and you'll be clobbered on the head with his lightsaber.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

would it have been permissable for me, to just kill-off my healthy males because I no longer wanted them? Wow; if people did that with dogs and cats, they'd possibly be jailed!

---

I do have to say this. It is actually permissible to kill off your cats and dogs if you don't want them. It must be done in a humane way, such as gun shot to the head or throat slitting, but It is perfectly legal. I am in no way saying I'd do this, but depending on where you are most states allow it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by olstyn

That would by necessity be supporting the creation of the same problem he's complaining about, as it would just mean that he was buying from someone who's doing the same thing. I agree with your overall stance (and once again, what you do with your "low-value" babies is AWESOME), but this question was logically inconsistent, as buying the hoped-for end result of his breedings rather than doing the breedings himself would only take the process out of his control, rather than actually stopping it. Many "mutts" would still be created in order for him to acquire an albino granite jag carpet python (3-subspecies double recessive co-dom, if that's what he's after).

---

I see your point, BUT, his culling "part" of the clutch HE produces, only reduces this "footprint" he talks about, much less than if he didn't produce at all. If he didn't produce that clutch at all, how many more babies aren't contributing to the footprint now? If he produces and only culls undesireables, then he's still ADDING to the footprint of carpets and not reducing a thing, vs not breeding at all.

Hope that made sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

It has nothing to do with using these animals as feeders ... that's just some sugar coated cover story to make people feel better about his decision to breed animals that will produce so-called genetically toxic "by-product" and kill them ... this is about protecting the OPs investment animals.

I understand that an argument can be made that killing rodents is also in a sense protecting an investment, but my question is if the next step after killing rodents is killing normal siblings or "genetic mutts", what's the step after that? Will we one day be advocating the killing of mousers? Or female ball pythons that don't make it to 1500 grams in 18 months? Or males that don't breed at six months of age? For once we decide that killing certain animals is "good for the hobby", you can't stuff that back into the box.

Blessings,

-adam

---

This is a misrepresentation of what I am saying as fact. If I opt to sell hybridized normal appearing siblings to keep them from being sold as pure animals at some point in the future, that is protecting the pure lines of carpet pythons in the hobby already (since we can't get more...this is REALLY important). I LOSE money by not selling them. It has nothing to do with protecting my investment. If that were the case, I'd keep all the hets and breed them, but I don't, because they can, ultimatly be represented by someone else as something they are not...ie a coastal...or an IJ...

In order to protect from this eventuality, the best I can do is label them as hybrid f I sell them BUT, some will, eventually be sold as pure by someone who doesn't know any better.

And I stick to my guns. I see lots of big, brown snakes out there, that are obvious hybrids...that people can't hardly give away. They are doomed to very poor quality lives...so why would I make that problem worse?

S~

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

so why would I make that problem worse?

---

I'm sorry, I forget ... what is the so-called problem this time?

I thought (based on your own words) you were killing these animals to be used as feeders? You know, you're whole blame the people that feed rodents to justify your killing thing.

I thought (based on your own words) you were single handedly saving the reptile hobby by killing worthless snakes and reducing our so-called "footprint" so that the legislators will leave us alone? You know, you're whole blame the irresponsible people letting animals go in the everglades as well as politicians to justify your killing thing.

I thought (based on your own words) that you were saving these animals from a life of neglect at the hands of irresponsible keepers that you are so absolutely sure are out there waiting to buy your animals and abuse them. You know, you're whole blame the irresponsible public that abuses animals to justify your killing thing.

Now it's genetic purity again? We shouldn't blame you for killing, we should blame the people that you'd sell these animals to that would end up misrepresenting them? It's they're fault you have to kill these snakes?

Gotcha.

Blessings,

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MsPrada

I do have to say this. It is actually permissible to kill off your cats and dogs if you don't want them. It must be done in a humane way, such as gun shot to the head or throat slitting, but It is perfectly legal. I am in no way saying I'd do this, but depending on where you are most states allow it.

---

I was unaware of that; thanks for clearing it up. I know of someone who put their sick dog down with a single shot to the head (it was instantaneous) and they went about it by being secretive, so I was unsure if it were legal or not.

Sorry for the abscence, but sometimes it's good to let a thread develop a little on it's own so that it doesn't turn into a parsing match. besides...weekends are for downtime.

This discussion was started 3 years ago at another forum ,which I now own, but didn't found. The interesting thing in the Carpet Python hobby right now is there are several new morphs. The problem with morphs, is that peole want to combine them, and in carpet pythons...they occure in different subspecies: Here is an example

Jaguar: Coastal
Zebra: Jungle
Granite: Irian Jaya
Caramel: Coastal
Tiger: Coastal
Striped: Bredli
Albino: Darwin
Axanthic: Coastal
I am sure i am forgeting 1 or two, but you get the idea.

Althought these are all carpet pythons...they are all distinct subspecies (although the arguement can, and has been made, that thay should not be, as they are not distinct enough, with the exception of Bredli)

So the problem arises when you combine these animals, you have "normal" appearing offsping as well. Spining these off to the public, labels correectly or not, muddies the gene pool for those looking for "pure" animals.

Hence, what happens is, later in their lives if they live that long, you see big, brown, obvious hybrid carpet pythons that are very, very hard to find homes for.

This is a problem that is almost unique to Carpets right now, as the morph craze has bled over into carpet pythons. As a hobbiest who see's the value on both sides (I really do enjoy crossing morphs to see what will be created) I have to spin off hybrid or "Mutt" offspring ass well. This means I am part of the problem of muddying up the gene pool when i create these. I used to just sell them off as what they were, but have learned personally, that this just doesn't work, as it's REALLY bad for the captive gene pool of carpets (which is already really messed up BTW) because many are just sold as a "jungle" or a "coastal" when they want to resell them, which is inaccurate...and sucks if you are a purist.

As we spin off lots of these siblings (remember, carpets can have up to 40 eggs per clutch, depending on the subspecies) they can do lots of damage, and may, if not most of them will have lives that will end badly (again, IMHO).

I tried to adapt this arguement for ball pythons since this is a Ball Python forum. You guys have no problems with hybridization, but you produce a TON of normals. I wondered if any of you thought along the lines that I do, that it may be better to just cull some of your offpsring. Resoundingly with you guys, that answer is no, but you respect my choice to do what I want as an idividual. No matter how well I tried to play devil's advocate. 8-) I suspect that many of you are pet owners, and have not yet crossed into the realm of breeding lots of babies, but when you do, it does create its own set of ethical challenges, and I thought it would be interesting to hear what you all thought. I have bee challenged by the position that I put myself in, and I am trying my best to do what I feel is right for my animals and my hobby daily.

Thank you all for allowing this discussion, and thanks to those of you who have been respectful in your questions and answers. All posts like this are intended for is to discuss things that may, or may not, be completely popular with everyone, and see what sorts of ideas can come from it, and see if any solutions can be suggested, if anyone has one?

Lastly, I want to say that, I am in the minority of Carpet People. Like most of you, most of the carpet python community, even if they agree that we have a problem, don't have the heart to cull a healthy animal, even if it's a hybrid. In truth, I don't either, which is why I started to feed them to something else. It's a more comgfortable solution to me than just freezing them, and just makes it "acceptable" to me on some level, though I don't like it.

Anyway thanks again for the input guys, and thanks forum Admins for allowing the discussion. It's nearly taboo on my own forums as well, but one that every year or so comes up, and always ends with an extremely interesting discussion. I am not one to block free speech on a topic just because it's uncomfotable.

I'll go back to lurking now.

S~

Sure, large and small breeders, will produce alot of normals. What better way to build up future clientele, then to nurture your normals (the same,exact way that you'd nutrure and feed your morphs) and sell them to entry-level hobbyists? Instead of just wasting the snakes and feeding them off.

If you view them as expendible commodities in an over-flooded market, then to me, you should not breed them!

Also, to me,culling-off "ugly normals" is one step away from neglecting them. If you have some pretty morphs,and the normals will die anyway, how hard is it to rationalize the "well, then I won't feed the normals as much.. they're just going to the canners anyway." I don't believe that I am far off-base with this one..

Seems like, if someone wants to cull.. maybe they're too lazy or stingy to care for a snake until it can be found a good home. To me, everyone who breeds, has a responsibility to keep their offspring until it can be sold or adopted out into a great home. Just my thoughts on it; no one has to agree.

Wow!

Ok, let's see:

Your argument held no water
You were soundly beaten in the "debate"
You had your bare bottom smacked like a petulent youngster

Now, exit stage left. Shocking...

Quote:

---

It's nearly taboo on my own forums as well, but one that every year or so comes up, and always ends with an extremely interesting discussion. I a not one to block free speech on a topic just because it's uncomfotable

---

So it's ok for YOU to come here and perpetuate a 20+ page post, yet you not only lock, but erase my posting leading the Morelia crowd to YOUR discussion here???? What the hell Shawn? I wish there was a [ B.S. ] insert quote here [ /B.S ] option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

obvious hybrid carpet pythons that are very, very hard to find homes for.

---

Well how about, try harder, breed less, or don't breed at all? Because "it's too hard to find them good homes" shouldn't be an excuse for killing anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShawnC

As a hobbiest who see's the value on both sides (I really do enjoy crossing morphs to see what will be created) I HAVE TO spin off hybrid or "Mutt" offspring ass well. This means I am part of the problem of muddying up the gene pool when i create these.

---

That's not true. You don't "HAVE TO" do it. You CHOOSE TO and then you CHOOSE TO kill the less desirable offspring. There are alternatives ... you could only work with homozygous x homozygous pairings (or double/triple homozygous) ... if they don't exist yet, wait. You make it sound like there is no other option than to kill these animals and that is a lie. It's your choice, and try as you will, it is not justified.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Resoundingly with you guys, that answer is no, but you respect my choice to do what I want as an idividual.

---

Are we reading the same thread? You lost me with the whole "respect" part.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShawnC

I am trying my best to do what I feel is right for my animals

---

By KILLING them?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShawnC

Lastly, I want to say that, I am in the minority of Carpet People.

---

Thank god.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShawnC

Like most of you, most of the carpet python community, even if they agree that we have a problem, don't have the heart to cull a healthy animal, even if it's a hybrid. In truth, I don't either, which is why I started to feed them to something else. It's a more comgfortable solution to me than just freezing them, and just makes it "acceptable" to me on some level, though I don't like it.

---

For someone that doesn't "like it", you sure have come up with a whole lot of justification to continue to do it ... so obviously, you don't "not like it" enough to think about stopping or focusing your energy on solutions that don't involve the killing of healthy animals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShawnC

Here is an example

Jaguar: Coastal
Zebra: Jungle
Granite: Irian Jaya
Caramel: Coastal
Tiger: Coastal
Striped: Bredli
Albino: Darwin
Axanthic: Coastal

---

I'll give you an A+ for creating this thread here to market your business and forum though, even if I am completely disgusted by your ethics, you're marketing is pretty clever albeit completely transparent.

Blessings,

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SRX

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShawnC

It's nearly taboo on my own forums as well, but one that every year or so comes up, and always ends with an extremely interesting discussion. I a not one to block free speech on a topic just because it's uncomfotable

---

So it's ok for YOU to come here and perpetuate a 20+ page post, yet you not only lock, but erase my posting leading the Morelia crowd to YOUR discussion here???? What the hell Shawn? I wish there was a [ B.S. ] insert quote here [ /B.S ] option.

---

WOW ... more lies ... shocker.

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShawnC

Sorry for the abscence, but sometimes it's good to let a thread develop a little on it's own so that it doesn't turn into a parsing match. besides...weekends are for downtime.

This discussion was started 3 years ago at another forum ,which I now own, but didn't found. The interesting thing in the Carpet Python hobby right now is there are several new morphs. The problem with morphs, is that peole want to combine them, and in carpet pythons...they occure in different subspecies: Here is an example

Jaguar: Coastal
Zebra: Jungle
Granite: Irian Jaya
Caramel: Coastal
Tiger: Coastal
Striped: Bredli
Albino: Darwin
Axanthic: Coastal
I am sure i am forgeting 1 or two, but you get the idea.

Althought these are all carpet pythons...they are all distinct subspecies (although the arguement can, and has been made, that thay should not be, as they are not distinct enough, with the exception of Bredli)

So the problem arises when you combine these animals, you have "normal" appearing offsping as well. Spining these off to the public, labels correectly or not, muddies the gene pool for those looking for "pure" animals.

Hence, what happens is, later in their lives if they live that long, you see big, brown, obvious hybrid carpet pythons that are very, very hard to find homes for.

This is a problem that is almost unique to Carpets right now, as the morph craze has bled over into carpet pythons. As a hobbiest who see's the value on both sides (I really do enjoy crossing morphs to see what will be created) I have to spin off hybrid or "Mutt" offspring ass well. This means I am part of the problem of muddying up the gene pool when i create these. I used to just sell them off as what they were, but have learned personally, that this just doesn't work, as it's REALLY bad for the captive gene pool of carpets (which is already really messed up BTW) because many are just sold as a "jungle" or a "coastal" when they want to resell them, which is inaccurate...and sucks if you are a purist.

As we spin off lots of these siblings (remember, carpets can have up to 40 eggs per clutch, depending on the subspecies) they can do lots of damage, and may, if not most of them will have lives that will end badly (again, IMHO).

I tried to adapt this arguement for ball pythons since this is a Ball Python forum. You guys have no problems with hybridization, but you produce a TON of normals. I wondered if any of you thought along the lines that I do, that it may be better to just cull some of your offpsring. Resoundingly with you guys, that answer is no, but you respect my choice to do what I want as an idividual. No matter how well I tried to play devil's advocate. 8-) I suspect that many of you are pet owners, and have not yet crossed into the realm of breeding lots of babies, but when you do, it does create its own set of ethical challenges, and I thought it would be interesting to hear what you all thought. I have bee challenged by the position that I put myself in, and I am trying my best to do what I feel is right for my animals and my hobby daily.

Thank you all for allowing this discussion, and thanks to those of you who have been respectful in your questions and answers. All posts like this are intended for is to discuss things that may, or may not, be completely popular with everyone, and see what sorts of ideas can come from it, and see if any solutions can be suggested, if anyone has one?

Lastly, I want to say that, I am in the minority of Carpet People. Like most of you, most of the carpet python community, even if they agree that we have a problem, don't have the heart to cull a healthy animal, even if it's a hybrid. In truth, I don't either, which is why I started to feed them to something else. It's a more comgfortable solution to me than just freezing them, and just makes it "acceptable" to me on some level, though I don't like it.

Anyway thanks again for the input guys, and thanks forum Admins for allowing the discussion. It's nearly taboo on my own forums as well, but one that every year or so comes up, and always ends with an extremely interesting discussion. I am not one to block free speech on a topic just because it's uncomfotable.

I'll go back to lurking now.

S~

---

I'm so glad you appreciate the attitude here, that will comfort me on sleepless nights.

If you care so deeply about muddying the gene pool, stop breeding mutts.

If you really want to see only pure lines, only breed pure animals.

Blaming the mutts you create for making you have to kill them is somehow just not right. It seems to me that your desire for your morphs outweighs your dislike of killing. So, the question then becomes, what is so desirable about these morphs that you will kill normal looking offspring in order to obtain said morphs?

If you only wanted one or two of each of these morphs, display animals so to speak, being the well heeled man you've presented yourself as, you would simply purchase them from a breeder who specialized in carpets and was hopefully holding true to breeding true.

But you haven't even come close enough to that one to have missed it by a mile.

You don't want a couple of each just because they're pretty or rare or neat to have or you wouldn't be breeding them. You're not philanthropic about your breeding or you wouldn't be charging money for the babies you don't kill. Therefore, I must take the chance and assume, you're in it for the money.

If you didn't want the money more than you didn't want to kill baby snakes, you wouldn't be breeding them at all.

It just seems like you're lying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

WOW ... more lies ... shocker.

-adam

---

It is an honor to know you, Mr. Wysocki. I feel enlightened by what I have learned from you in this very thread. I am proud to call you a friend!

I am also truly humbled to have spent 5 glorious years as a member of this great forum that allows us to speak our minds and learn from each other to grow not only as people, but as animal owners and caretakers.

What more can I do with my 10,000th post on this forum but to use that privilege provided to me by bp.net to speak my mind and say to Shawn C...

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

In light,

Jamie

P.S. Joe: You have some catching up to do! ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

WOW ... more lies ... shocker.

-adam

---

SRX's thread was deleted because we have one rule at our forum. Play nice, and be respectful. SRX was intentionally picking fights with me because he doesn't like the new format on our boards, and whenever I would shut him down with an answer, he would come up with something else he doesn't like. All of our threads are still available to comment on, including the culling threads, with the exception of one, which I locked because the forum members requested it. SRX was not blicked from my site, which is an option, I just deleted a thread that had nothing to do with culling, and everything to do with him complaining about the new format. Yes, he tried to bring people to this thread, which I am fine with im linking, I have never made any bones about my thoughts about culling.

S~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShawnC

SRX's thread was deleted because we have one rule at our forum. Play nice, and be respectful. SRX was intentionally picking fights with me because he doesn't like the new format on our boards, and whenever I would shut him down with an answer, he would come up with something else he doesn't like. All of our threads are still available to comment on, including the culling threads, with the exception of one, which I locked because the forum members requested it. SRX was not blicked from my site, which is an option, I just deleted a thread that had nothing to do with culling, and everything to do with him complaining about the new format.

S~

---

And having caught you in several lies here, on this site, we should just believe you.....why?