Why We Are Idiots For Using Kingsnake.com To Price Our Animals

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

They are daylilys:)

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Oh, I see. It's a good thing we started saying daylilies. Otherwise, I would have shortened it to Hermo's. Excuse me, I'd like to buy some "hermo's." HAhahahha.

[QUOTE=stratus_020202;1032492]

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Originally Posted by jsmorphs2

Oh, I see. It's a good thing we started saying daylilies. Otherwise, I would have shortened it to Hermo's. Excuse me, I'd like to buy some "hermo's." HAhahahha.

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Hahaha...:rofl:

The Hort. industry has some funny names!!

I think that the reasons for declining prices go beyond price speculation, supply, demand, etc...all of these factors go into the equation, but really is a niche market so you can't compare behavior in this market to behavior in other more traditional product markets.

The perceived value of morphs has to do with a lot of things - in the beginning, the few "big" breeders around that first started working with morphs did a great job marketing these mutations and created a lot of hype around them. This is a business for them and they made a lot of money by working to increase their perceived value.

When the morph has been bred to the point that Joe Schmoe in his basement is hatching them out, some of that hype and excitement disappears, as does the perceived value, regardless of how many are being produced or sold in the market. Joe doesn't feel the need to hype the animals in the same way as they were before, and someone else hatches out the "next big thing" that everyone shifts their focus to. Suddenly that morph isn't worth as much as it was.

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

mechnut450 - Why not save up the money for the pied? You spend $500 on a pair of hets, then raise them up for 3 years before you can really even have a chance at producing a pied. If you were to start saving with the goal of raising $2000 in 3 years, chances are you would have what you needed to buy a pied in LESS than 3 years due to the price drops every year.

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you figure out how long it will take when you disablity income about 670 and you bills are anywere from 600- 690 a month I lucky I can keep supplies at time and i looking at having to get most my molars removed (by dentsit students) because I can't afford a real dentist.

My bills don't count supplies, fuel or food . I am currently supplying my reptiles need with doing odd jobs the best I can, and the only reason I happen accross the het pied was kingsnake and asked around on there. The one guy was dealing with the ideal of possible getting burned out in those cali fires and the other guy I just happen to get real lucky when i emailed hime. ( I make an indept post after dinner so the pain meds for the teeth don't hav me floating lol

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Originally Posted by jsmorphs2

If someone buys a $1,000 morph from a big breeder and in a few years produces 5 of the same morph why the heck would they sell the offspring for less!!??

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Because they 1) paid $1000 for the morph due to supply at the time of purchase, and 2) because they're driving up supply themselves (1-to-5 ratio at 3yrs, 1-to-10 at 4yrs, 1-to-15 at 5yrs and 1-to-45 at 6yrs when offspring become breeders).

Simply put, when there are 45 offspring in circulation for every one purchased on a six year roll, you simply can't continue to sell the offspring at 100% the price of the original stock.

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Originally Posted by ctrlfreq

Because they 1) paid $1000 for the morph due to supply at the time of purchase, and 2) because they're driving up supply themselves (1-to-5 ratio at 3yrs, 1-to-10 at 4yrs, 1-to-15 at 5yrs and 1-to-45 at 6yrs when offspring become breeders).

Simply put, when there are 45 offspring in circulation for every one purchased on a six year roll, you simply can't continue to sell the offspring at 100% the price of the original stock.

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Just to add on to what you are saying, this is correct if you assume that demand is a constant.

Given the state of the economy, do you think that the market for ball pythons has increased in size, or has it contracted? To me, evidence points towards the latter.

I don't believe that Kingsnake is solely responsible for price drops. Its natural to want to place blame somewhere, in an effort to control something that in reality, we have no control over.

Just enjoy your snakes and the rest will fall into place.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Given the state of the economy, do you think that the market for ball pythons has increased in size, or has it contracted? To me, evidence points towards the latter.

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I'm personally of the opinion that the market has never been as big as we hopefully assume it to be. While I'm sure the state of the economy is having some impact, I think the primary driver is the fact that the supply is already vastly outpacing the demand except in the arena of multiple-morph designer animals (which is what those who make their living on these animals concentrate on).

Really what we need isn't a limit on breeding, but a path of certification resembling the AKC. Let everyday Joe breed all he likes - but make him show his animals and prove their superb genetic content if he wants to deal in high priced quality specimens.

I believe the pricing in the BP market is a combination of most of the things mentioned in this thread. Of course prices come down as a particular morph becomes more common, and there is some other new morph that is the hottest thing. But prices are also probably dropped more than they "should" be by people who are trying to sell out quickly, and just the general perception in the market that prices always drop.

It HAS to stop. We are reaching the point where, with the increasing price of keeping and breeding the snakes, mostly due to the increased cost of rodent food, many of the morphs may end up costing more to produce than you can get from selling them. That is not a good thing.

Also, people are willing to pay $100, or at least close to it, for a normal at a pet store. It happens all the time. But most people buying from breeders would not be willing to pay the same price for a male pastel unless it was a really nice one. That makes no sense.

I hope to start breeding this coming season, and when I do, I hope I'll be able to get reasonable prices for those that I decide to sell. I plan on researching the market, both on KS and at shows, as well as by talking to some breeders with lots more experience than me. Then I plan on sticking pretty firm with the prices I decide on. I know the demand is out there, it is just a matter of finding the way to connect with the right buyer.

Right now, I'm much more worried about whether or not it will still be legal to breed & sell at all, than about what price I'll be able to get. :mad:

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Originally Posted by jsmorphs2

The Horticulture industry puts trademarks and royalties on genetics. If So&So grower produces a new cultivar of Hemerocallis and they trademark it, those genetics are owned and it is illegal to propagate and SELL that specific plant. To do so would require licensing and a royalty would be charged on each plant sold.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I sincerely hope this never happens to the herp world.

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You have to understand that you are talking something totally different here. Trademarks on plants are done on an exact genetic profile, and they are asexually reproduced so that the "offspring" are clones of the parent. Otherwise they would not still be the trademarked variety. It is perfectly acceptable to cross 2 trademarked varieties and come up with your own new variety, you just aren't allowed to asexually reproduce the trademarked variety.

I actually thought it was only done with plants that do not normally reproduce asexually, such as roses, so daylillies would not be trademarked, but I could easily be wrong on that.

In any event, it won't be happening with herps until we learn how to clone them.

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Originally Posted by jsmorphs2

If someone buys a $1,000 morph from a big breeder and in a few years produces 5 of the same morph why the heck would they sell the offspring for less!!??

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Something to consider:

Possibly because supply just quintupled for that one specific small time breeder, at the same time supply is increasing all the time due to other breeders, and we are in a market of falling demand for high priced snakes due to the economy and the so-called "ball python bubble".