Is there a Morph you will never own/breed due to genetics?

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Originally Posted by andwhy6

of course your going to say that "your" line is clean... you think the breeder you bought your snake from or ANY breeder is going to admit they are producing defective snakes.... you obviously havent read about many account of the wobbles

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I take offense to this. It sounds to me like you are saying that I am am lying about my spiders. As I have said before. They do not wobble! If they do start to wobble then I will not breed them.

I have heard of accounts of spiders that wobble, but I have also heard of accounts of spiders that do not wobble, including myself.

With all this talk about spider wobbles and spinning, I think I'm going to have to take my spiders out and start playing the staring game more often. I hear this often but I never had to experience this first hand. Knock on wood. :please: Granted I don't take them all out on a regular basis as much as I use to, with the collection growing, but in the past 2 years in owning some of these spiders not once did I detect a spin or wobble.

Are there any videos of spiders wobbling or spinning out there? Although I think it would be pretty obvious if they are doing this, maybe I'm just not seeing it.

This thread is interesting specially to me who's just starting to collect morphs. Some of these issues are even new to me, like the kinks in carmels and the "derma" (can anyone post a pic of one to enlighten a noob like me). But based on what you described it, it will probably have my vote as a morph that I will never own. But gotta admit, wobble or not, spider is still a killer morph for me. :)

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Originally Posted by jopay

This thread is interesting specially to me who's just starting to collect morphs. Some of these issues are even new to me, like the kinks in carmels and the "derma" (can anyone post a pic of one to enlighten a noob like me). But based on what you described it, it will probably have my vote as a morph that I will never own. But gotta admit, wobble or not, spider is still a killer morph for me. :)

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Here's a link to the derma ball on Ralph Davis site. The derma is way towards the bottom.

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/in...ves/may-05.asp

I agree about the spiders. Bumblebees are what made me decide to start breeding ball pythons in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I take offense to this. It sounds to me like you are saying that I am am lying about my spiders. As I have said before. They do not wobble! If they do start to wobble then I will not breed them.

I have heard of accounts of spiders that wobble, but I have also heard of accounts of spiders that do not wobble, including myself.

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Hate to break it to you but ALL spiders do wobble. Some are known as train wreak spinners while other don't came off with the wobbles but do still "tick" there heads. You may think your spiders are fine and in the clear for this but after working for a big breeder and hands on with the couple of thousand spider and spider crosses he has I can tell you that they ALL wobble to a degree. Ask any big ball python breeder about this and if they aren't liars then they will tell you the truth about spiders and spiders crosses.

I'll tell ya I thought they were awesome and wanted a spider a few years ago and almost got one. I too thought not all spiders wobble but after working with so many and talking to and seeing other breeders collections I can simply say that they all do this. Also I'll tell ya this... your two may not come off as bad wobblers and may be on the side that aren't quite noticeable at all times, but if you breed them there is a chance that their offspring can hatch out as train wreaks or ones that do it a lot more and it's noticeable. I've seen that happen too.

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Originally Posted by lillyorchid

Hate to break it to you but ALL spiders do wobble. Some are known as train wreak spinners while other don't came off with the wobbles but do still "tick" there heads.

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I really do respect your opinion, but I don't think you can say that ALL spiders spin with such authority without knowing the basis of all breeders out there and their work with spiders. Yes, working with one large breeder is experience, but it is still only one breeder who either has or hasn't concentrated his efforts into breeding for less wobble.


On to the "spiders all came from one WC male", yes that's true, but spiders are also one of the most outcrossed animals out there. How many people honestly put two spiders together? Not very many that's for sure.

I believe most people breed them to normals because what fun is it in breeding two spiders when there is no super form?

It is possible to breed out bad genes, but it takes time and many generations of very selective educated breeding to accomplish that small task. Can spiders even be separated from the wobble? I don't know, but I do believe there is progress being made with more and more people choosing to breed those that don't wobble, or wobble very little when excited.

The wobble may even be created by the way the gene works, like it withholds a certain protein the cells need, or the migration of nerve cells is interrupted in some way by the presence of this gene. We just don't have those answers.

Out breeding. That is the key that helps lower the chances of any kind of defects. I regularly talk to a couple of mid-sized breeders, one of which works for 2 Industry pioneers.

Caramel Albinos Kinking: Well duh, people keep inbreeding them. If you inbreed enough you're going to have problems.

Spiders: I recently acquired a spider and I stared at him for hours, I didn't notice any ticks or quirks or anything that'd make me think something isn't right. And about 95% of the ones I've seen don't wobble. Is it a issue in my eyes? No, it isn't, but that's my opinion.

Ball Pythons are not anymore special than any other animal, espcially when it comes to deformities, I mean c'mon the majority of our hobby is based on them!!!

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I really do respect your opinion, but I don't think you can say that ALL spiders spin with such authority without knowing the basis of all breeders out there and their work with spiders. Yes, working with one large breeder is experience, but it is still only one breeder who either has or hasn't concentrated his efforts into breeding for less wobble.


On to the "spiders all came from one WC male", yes that's true, but spiders are also one of the most outcrossed animals out there. How many people honestly put two spiders together? Not very many that's for sure.

I believe most people breed them to normals because what fun is it in breeding two spiders when there is no super form?

It is possible to breed out bad genes, but it takes time and many generations of very selective educated breeding to accomplish that small task. Can spiders even be separated from the wobble? I don't know, but I do believe there is progress being made with more and more people choosing to breed those that don't wobble, or wobble very little when excited.

The wobble may even be created by the way the gene works, like it withholds a certain protein the cells need, or the migration of nerve cells is interrupted in some way by the presence of this gene. We just don't have those answers.

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Connie I have a lot of respect for you, but Allison is coming from a first hand experience with more spiders than many of us have had the chance to see. I have also personally read a post that Ralph Davis claims they are all tweaked to one extent or another.
Here is a link to the post, and if you are not a member of the RDR forum it is worth signing up just to read this post.
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/fo...?TOPIC_ID=9716

Also, there is a consensus that not all spiders are as bad as the next one. At the same time they all have the potential to produce some tweaked out animals that may not display symptoms until they have long been with a new owner. How do my fellow hobbiest, plan for that type of customer service nightmare? The level of denial, when it comes to the issues with spiders, is amazing and the fact that they look so cool and make hot combos doesn't help.

There is no way to stop the spider train now but, I think there should be a disclaimer that comes along with them detailing the risk that new owners may face. I think this is even more important now since spiders are at a price level that is attractive to newcomers that may have no clue about the spider neuro issues. This has the potential to turn off new BP hobbiest that find their spider doing strange things....so they ask online and find out that this is an issue that has been disscussed for years..........at this point I'd be pretty upset that I purchased something and was not given all the info on the potential for a spider to tweak out!

There has been more than enough outcrossing with spiders, that if selective breeding were a solution then we would not keep having this disscussion about neuro impaired spiders.

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Originally Posted by karbogast

There is no way to stop the spider train now but, I think there should be a disclaimer that comes along with them detailing the risk that new owners may face. I think this is even more important now since spiders are at a price level that is attractive to newcomers that may have no clue about the spider neuro issues. This has the potential to turn off new BP hobbiest that find their spider doing strange things....so they ask online and find out that this is an issue that has been disscussed for years..........at this point I'd be pretty upset that I purchased something and was not given all the info on the potential for a spider to tweak out!

There has been more than enough outcrossing with spiders, that if selective breeding were a solution then we would not keep having this disscussion about neuro impaired spiders.

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I agree with this 100%. I also worry that as prices get lower some of these unknowing buyers will take their spider that is acting strange to an unknowing vet and the snake will end up being euthanized.

Again, there has been no decisive study on the matter of spider wobbles. Until there is, I hope that people will refrain from overly generalized blanket statements and stick to the facts we *do* have:

-the spider trait seems to be associated with wobbling
-many spiders show evidence of wobbling, and new owners should be informed that wobbling may turn up later
-it's possible that all spiders wobble to a greater or lesser degree
-we hope to learn more about the problem and find out if its avoidable or if the spider gene is only expressed when the wobble gene is functioning