are these balls worth this price asked?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Yeah ... sometimes my big mouth writes checks my ass can't cash ... well, maybe more than sometimes.

[repeats to self] silence is golden ... silence is golden

:)

-adam

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After reading through this entire thread,I think your ass is doing a damn good job at cashing checks. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Pythonman

alll the big time breeders will advise you to scrutinize people to the fullest before buying a ball python, but they do no research when selling their valuable morph to someone

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Who specifically do you mean when you talk about big breeders not researching who they sell to? Do you seriously mean "ALL" of them?

And ... how do you know that they don't?

Are you saying that there's a question that the big breeders should be asking before they sell a snake to let them know if one day down the road the buyer is going to produce offspring and keep them in dirty cages? If you are, please share it ... I'd love to know what that question would be? And also if you're suggesting that "big breeders" can start asking this question that you have in mind and there would magically never again be a snake posted for sale in a picture of a dirty cage, I think it's super important that you share it ... we can solve this all right here and now.

Sure sounds to me like you're blaming the breeders. Certainly doesn't sound like you think it's the guy that owns the snakes fault that he didn't take the time to clean the cage before the picture was taken.

I never thought I'd get such strong opposition for expecting people to clean a cage out before taking a picture of an animal for sale. Unreal.

-adam

I don't for the life of me know how someone could hold the breeder responsible for what a buyer does later down the road. Most people would asume that anyone willing to shell out Albino $$ for a snake would have a clue what the snake requires. One of those requirements is to keep a clean cage. Call me crazy, but that seems pretty simple to me.

Even the big dog breeders who spay/neuter all pets before homing, and have strict rules, regulations and contracts for adopters of unaltered animals, still occasionally end up with their lines being used by yucky breeders. No matter what you do, you cannot guarantee the lives of your animals once they leave your home.

Interesting debate going on in here... but I believe it comes down to this:

On the internet, pictures and words are the ONLY means of representing ourselves and our animals.
Regardless of the fact that changing paper towels in a cage takes 2 minutes or less, and should be done regularly for the health of snakes and humans alike, the fact that someone is too rushed, busy, lazy, whatever to take those minutes and clean the cage before taking pictures (which takes the same amount of time)... pictures that will represent his animals and himself... well, that speaks volumes. We don't know if they are the RIGHT volumes, but it's the impression we get from what we see.

Bottom line: Many of us forget to clean every once in a while for one reason or another, and that's alright as long as we get it done ASAP. But when taking pictures for a sale, there is no excuse to have animals pictured in a dirty cage.

i agree very much. well lets start off by saying these snakes are local and i found them posted on craigslist.com. now as i have visited other forums i have noticed the offering of these snakes on multiple forums also and is posting as 1 albino and 1 het female. im trying to contact the seller to get more info on the snakes but no luck yet. the reason i posted this as are they worth the price is because even though i love reptiles and dont know much about ball pythons since i have never owned one but have heard good things about there temperments i just didnt want to pay that much money if i can but them cheaper at a pet store or something. basically meaning i dont want to be gouged or over priced on something.

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Originally Posted by Pythonman

Actually thats not what I said...What I did say is that alll the big time breeders will advise you to scrutinize people to the fullest before buying a ball python, but they do no research when selling their valuable morph to someone...In general, any old joe with the money to buy a snake can...Point being the seller wouldn't have the snakes to breed if people were more careful with their snake lines (overbreeding, irresponsible selling etc) and we wouldn't be in this mess...every breeder knows their snakes are going to bred 90% of the time, but no blame falls on them for irresponsible selling, but for anyone to buy "any old joe's" snake now that the breeder got his money, is highly advised against by....wait for it...the big breeder...and the poor snakes are still stuck sleeping in urine with no chance of a better home...and I like to give people the benefit of the doubt until I speak to them and see where their heads at...like I said before...this picture alone is not enough for me to completely dismiss the seller or the snakes...whats the risk $600 and a $300 trip to the vet...whats the reward...a great pet...hopefully a great breeder...and from what I see...a pretty nice high contrast albino project for a decent price if that's what you're looking for...

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Big breeders do not have the time to scrutinize every email they get about a sale.... only in a perfect non realistic world would that happen.

Irresponsible selling? The reason no blame falls on sellers is because what some one else does with their animal/s once they have them is their business.... it's out of the hands of the seller.

When a seller sends out an animal/s it is done so in good faith that the new owner will do the right thing. If the new owner breaks laws, fails to care for the animal/s it is their choice to do so and the consequences lay squarely on the owner, NOT the seller!

The reason any old joe can buy animal is simple, we live in a free country and don't need someone's permission.

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Originally Posted by xanaxez

i agree very much. well lets start off by saying these snakes are local and i found them posted on craigslist.com. now as i have visited other forums i have noticed the offering of these snakes on multiple forums also and is posting as 1 albino and 1 het female. im trying to contact the seller to get more info on the snakes but no luck yet. the reason i posted this as are they worth the price is because even though i love reptiles and dont know much about ball pythons since i have never owned one but have heard good things about there temperments i just didnt want to pay that much money if i can but them cheaper at a pet store or something. basically meaning i dont want to be gouged or over priced on something.

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I have found several legitimate postings on CL for animals that need to be rehomed, but more often it's free advertising for animal breeders and brokers.

I can tell you that for around that price, you can get a healthy, nice BP (maybe even an albino/het pair) from any of the good breeders (8Ball, Heather's Herps, BHB, etc.). Check out their websites, and check Faunaclassifieds.com under the BOI section before you purchase from anyone. You can find feedback from buyers there.

Hope this helps!

PS Yes, Ball Pythons are great!

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Originally Posted by Bettacreek

Even the big dog breeders who spay/neuter all pets before homing, and have strict rules, regulations and contracts for adopters of unaltered animals, still occasionally end up with their lines being used by yucky breeders. No matter what you do, you cannot guarantee the lives of your animals once they leave your home.

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EXACTLY!!!!!!, but they make the effort to write the contracts and attempt to protect their lines..and they will tell a family or person looking to buy their puppies that they cannot if they do not think the person is right for the dog, They'll choose to turn down $$$ in order to make sure each of their puppies goes to a GOOD HOME, not just one with "albino" money...and yes I do think that if people didn't mass produce these things there would be less of them in dirty cages...do you really need hundreds of albinos, pieds, whatever...I doubt it but you want the $$$...so yes big breeders share some of the responsibility...and no it's not ONE question. THAT is your problem...It wouldn't be an easy fix and so you wouldn't do it and would require a little more work on the side of the breeder, which snake breeders aren't willing to do...It would have to be a line of questions, poss a phone or in person interview, a reference or two god forbid from a vet saying this person takes good care of his current and past animals....No you can not guarantee the lives once they leave your home, but you don't have to sell them to the old biker guy with a beard who clearly has no clue what he's doing...but you want his $$ and you'll worry about what he does with his snake later..Somebody had the first pieds, albinos, mojave, whatever and they sold it to someone who mass produced them and now the price dropped, there all over, and in the hands of irresponsible breeders..I remember as a kid hearing how rare and expensive the albino ball pythons were.Talk about taking advantage of a group of animals..People must have bought multiple houses off those things...And when you make that kind of money on something it's in your best interest as well as that of the entire bp species to be very selective picking sellers with rare animals..And don't yoiu think it's respectful of the species to find GOOD homes, not just homes with "albino" money....YES I think it's about time big breeders stop pointing fingers unless its at each other and start accepting that the reason there are so many BP's in bad conditions is bc THEY mass produced them...I know for a fact that no big breeders look into where their snakes are going in any kind of real way...Someone emails them, paypals them, and they send the snake...:colbert:

Sputnik,
Make all the excuses for them that you want...They have time to scrutinize their perspective buyers...and if they don't then they need to rethink their business plan. You dont see people with Best In Show Dogs asking how many females their dog can inseminate in one seasons to "maximize" their male hahha.. they protect their lines..The way the BP world is today it probably is unreasnable to ask them to look into all their buyers...but thats because as you all have shown, it's accpeptable to sell to any old joe. You're selling "in good faith" lol! Wake up...Thats called..."Im selling it and I don't want to be responsible for what happens once it leaves my hands"....And it is a free country and you have the RIGHT to sell/conduct business with whomever you choose to, but you also have the right to refuse to sell...remember those signs, no shirt, no shoes, no service...ya thats because as long as it's not based on race, religion, or gender you can refuse to sell your snakes to someone for whatever reason you want, especially if you think they will not be a good home for your snake...thats the true meaning of a free country..:salute:


I"M SORRY FOR EXPECTING MORE FROM THE PEOPLE IN CHARGE OF BP WORLD INSTEAD OF THOSE OUTSIDE THE GATES WAITING TO GET INTO BP WORLD!!!!
Very easy to point fingers and play the "well I didn't know he was an irresponsible breeder" game. Much harder to take responsibility for your actions and the sales you CHOSE to make.

And just for the record..I've never said it's ok to sell or leave animals in dirty cages...My cages are always clean in my house, but to say that the guy shouldn't go drive and check out a good deal he saw on craigslist is crazy for me..esp if he knows BP's and can pick out a good deal from a scam...Pictures and words are not all that we have..we have phones and refrerences!! these are soooo much better for picking out places to potentially get your snakes. Get them on the phone see how fast the answers come, does he studder, or do anything else that makes you think he's being less that tuthful..Then find a reference that you TRULY trust...If you can't...then don't buy...:cool:

What's your definition of mass producing? How many is mass producing? I've been to some big breeders. Besides a few clutches of any given morph, they didn't have HUNDREDS of a single morph produced, they had maybe 20 of each produced (and that was on the high end). They didn't have walls and walls of albinos or walls and walls of pastels or walls and walls of cinnies, etc.

Hell, the enchi that's in my avatar came from a big breeder - they had 10 enchis they produced that year. Ten of them - hardly mass producing them. I know there were 10, because I visited and spent time working in their facility for a week and hand picked this animal from their available enchi's.

That's not very massive in my book. Ball pythons don't breed like rabbits, or even puppies.

You seem to have a big grudge against big breeders - why is this? How many do you personally know well enough, as well as their business practices so intimately, to make such broad sweeping generalizations against them?

Why ARE you so angry at them?