Snakes, dogs, cats, horses-- anthropomorphism

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If you are saying that emotion is not just a physiological process, then what is it? You are heading in an almost spiritual direction

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I am not saying that. I am questioning which part of the process we LABEL as emotion and whether or not it IS emotion or it is just something we have invented.

There is nothing spiritual about this. This (to me) is about the human capacity to invent oneself. To use words and ideas to create things that are not there. In OURselves and in creatures. My basic premise is that we are all animals. Humans are animals. That's my premise.

We may be far from our basic animal survival roots, but we are still that animal.

I really find it funny people saying its Fact that reptiles cant feel emotion, We know they have instincts, we know they can reason, we know they have preferences. I beleive there is somethin like a 30 page thread on this, and the only answer we can get is we cant know. Im not implying anything, except we cant say anything definite, Science is a string of theories that are proven over time, but it takes one oposite result to destroy a theory that may have been build for a long time. Nothing in science is definite, as there is always something that can contradict it, so saying anythings definite in a scientifical sense, is just someone spitting out there theories and views, and opinions as fact, and really being pretty darn ignorant. Someone who beleives they dont, but excepts theres a possability, beleives they can, but excepts the possability are the ones that dont apply to the ignorance. I dont mean to be mean, just it gets pretty rediculous

As for emotions, two theories that are kinda out there.

A. We apply human emotions to everything, as we are human, as wes pointed out, even men and woman are different in emotions. But to say that they dont have emotion can only imply they dont have human emotion. Heres a comparision to display my idea.

Dolphins and sharks, they both are similar, they both are similar sizes (depending on species), both swim, both eat fish, both have similar structure, yet ones a fish and has gills, anothers a mammal and breathes air. They both fufil similar niches, being totally different. Two things can do the same thing, but be not related at all.

Second is that most situations bring on a response, its instinct, like the flight or fight response. Now over time humans adjust to situations, and we have emotions to replace instinct. <<<< has no grounds, just adding to the mass of theories and philosiphy here.

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Anyone else picturing a snake biting its own tail?

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Seen it.... :P:8:

As for dogs, id suggest anyone watch the science of dogs if its ever on Nat Geo again, anyway, it shows how they evolve to survive with humans, to there enviorment, in order to thrive. they learn to read human signals, like pointing, where "scientifically" smarter animals like apes, cant. So they may have closer emotions to ours because they have been selectivly adjusting to our behavior through breeding, The domestic fox experiment in siberia shows this.

Anyway, there are no definites, just theories, so i really find it sad to see people push theory as fact, and the fact there is no evidence as evidence. You cant prove a snake definitivly lacks emotion, the only thing that can be proven is they definitivly have it. Reasonable doubt baby...:colbert::rolleye2::gj::D

I agree its an interesting topic, just hope it can stay level headed....

Ben

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Originally Posted by Crazydude

I really find it funny people saying its Fact that reptiles cant feel emotion, We know they have instincts, we know they can reason, we know they have preferences.

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Can snakes reason? What is the definition of reason? ;) Maybe they can to an extent, but not reasoning out based on logic as we understand it.

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As for emotions, two theories that are kinda out there.

A. We apply human emotions to everything, as we are human, as wes pointed out, even men and woman are different in emotions. But to say that they dont have emotion can only imply they dont have human emotion. Heres a comparision to display my idea.

Dolphins and sharks, they both are similar, they both are similar sizes (depending on species), both swim, both eat fish, both have similar structure, yet ones a fish and has gills, anothers a mammal and breathes air. They both fufil similar niches, being totally different. Two things can do the same thing, but be not related at all.

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Comparing apples to oranges here...

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Second is that most situations bring on a response, its instinct, like the flight or fight response. Now over time humans adjust to situations, and we have emotions to replace instinct. <<<< has no grounds, just adding to the mass of theories and philosiphy here.

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Might have been better to say humans evolved into logical reasoning beings to replace our instincts. We humans have lost the physical prowess of our ancestors because we became cunning and outsmart our prey. We learned new tricks. Work smarter, not harder.

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As for dogs, id suggest anyone watch the science of dogs if its ever on Nat Geo again, anyway, it shows how they evolve to survive with humans, to there enviorment, in order to thrive. they learn to read human signals, like pointing, where "scientifically" smarter animals like apes, cant. So they may have closer emotions to ours because they have been selectivly adjusting to our behavior through breeding, The domestic fox experiment in siberia shows this.

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Good point, but gorillas haven't been domesticated last I knew, and that domestication has a lot to do with how dogs live with us.

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Anyway, there are no definites, just theories, so i really find it sad to see people push theory as fact, and the fact there is no evidence as evidence. You cant prove a snake definitivly lacks emotion, the only thing that can be proven is they definitivly have it. Reasonable doubt baby...:colbert::rolleye2::gj::D

I agree its an interesting topic, just hope it can stay level headed....

Ben

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I see evidence everyday when I walk into my snake room. :gj:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I see evidence everyday when I walk into my snake room. :gj:

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Is this evidence there for anyone at all to see or is it one of those limited viewing group type of things where only you and certain other able-to-feel-more-than-men-can females are given witness of this evidence?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Is this evidence there for anyone at all to see or is it one of those limited viewing group type of things where only you and certain other able-to-feel-more-than-men-can females are given witness of this evidence?

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You have to pay to play Wes ;)

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Might have been better to say humans evolved into logical reasoning beings to replace our instincts.

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I think it might be more correct to say that our instincts are not at the surface. We still HAVE the instincts. Some suppress instincts and some are more in tune with instinct but we all have them. They are not gone.

I also think that if we were suddenly thrust into situations which were a bit more dire than the day to day starbucks world we live in, our instincts would fire up FAST. We (at least those of us who have access to computers and time to lounge about on forums) are not required to rely on our instinct to survive. If we WERE, we would be far more in tune with them. Our lifestyle suppresses the need.

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Originally Posted by ZinniaZ

I think it might be more correct to say that our instincts are not at the surface. We still HAVE the instincts. Some suppress instincts and some are more in tune with instinct but we all have them. They are not gone.

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Well that's another large disagreement among psychologists. I believe the teachings that humans do not have instincts. It's what I was taught in college and high school, and I still believe it today. :)

That's where the whole free will comes into play. We can always choose what to do. Instincts aren't learned, thought about or reasoned with. We can always choose to control ourselves in face of some major drives or emotions.

Hm.

I have instinctive reactions. Like if my child is being picked on, or if I or one of my kids is about to be hurt, or... Maternal instincts are there. I think humans have fight or flight too under extreme duress.

I did not know this was a debate (among psychologists). !

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Originally Posted by ZinniaZ

Hm.

I have instinctive reactions. Like if my child is being picked on, or if I or one of my kids is about to be hurt, or... Maternal instincts are there. I think humans have fight or flight too under extreme duress.

I did not know this was a debate (among psychologists). !

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Are you sure it's an instinct? Or a learned behavior? Or a drive? Can you choose to do it or not? Did you learn this reaction? Or is it a reflex?


If mothering is an instinct, then why do some mothers not take care of their young? Why do some mothers do unspeakable acts to their young? Why do some mothers do nothing? ;)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Are you sure it's an instinct? Or a learned behavior? Or a drive? Can you choose to do it or not?

Are you saying reactions are instincts? Or the following action is instinct?

If mothering is an instinct, then why do some mothers not take care of their young? Why do some mothers do unspeakable acts to their young? Why do some mothers do nothing? ;)

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I classify as instinct those behaviors whhich are done before I can think about them. The instinct to leap into a pool after my one year old son at the bottom of the pool. Not learned because I had not had to do it before. Not thought about or planned, and quicker than the lifeguards (multiple) present who were also standing by and saw it happen. I have numerous examples of protective instinct and in eahc of them, I was behaving before I knew I was even moving. To me, that is the definition of instinct.

Re: mothers that do not mother-- this happens in all species. I would guess that the instinct to care for one's young can be glitchy. I do not think the absence of instinctive behavior in SOME members of a species means that the behavior is a learned or chosen behavior. I think the lack of instinct is aberrant. (ie, a mother dog that tries to kill her puppies) or maybe a different instinct or drive overrides. I don't know.

As for this:

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Are you saying reactions are instincts? Or the following action is instinct?

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I think the reaction is the instinct.

See, even in animals, you can habituate an animal not to respond to its instincts. We despook horses. We train dogs not to eat small critters that we don't want them to eat. But we would not say those animals do not HAVE the instinct.