Pinstripe question

We certainly do need to check our theories against reality to see if we need new theories, like the cutting edge stuff Mr. Barker mentions. The problem in this case may well be that few spider X spider or pin X pin breedings seem to have been done, or at least reported. I was wondering if anyone other than the founders of the two lines had ever done either but I did hear back from one other large breeder who had done spider X spider and its likely there are others this far in. But I've yet to hear much on detailed results. Spiders have been around long enough that even I have a pair now so eventually enough results should be available to start to figure out if the mutation is dominant or co-dominant.

If spider does turn out to be homozygous lethal (technically co-dominant I think) and predictable via standard genetics it would be very difficult to prove. Eggs often fail to hatch from non spider X spider clutches and het X het clutches often miss the homozygous. It's also very hard to prove something by its absence. Maybe we just haven’t been lucky enough to prove a homozygous spider yet. It would probably take detailed results from a lot of spider X spider clutchs to start to build a statistically significant trend. And then if it turns out that some how the homozygous embryos die before shelling (getting into the reproductive details I know almost nothing about) it would be even harder to prove with any certainty.

Getting back to pinstripe, this all goes double compared to spider because I believe there are even fewer pin X pin breedings and probably done by even fewer breeders (maybe for pinstripe it really is only the founder so far).

This is pretty amazing. To me, it just goes to show how much we all still have to learn fro breeding these snakes. I would have liked to breed Pin x Pin, but like many others I want to do some Pin combos first; that is a goal for the fall of '08 for me. Maybe the desire for combos actually prevents many from buying, say, 1.1 Pin to breed together? I personally am torn between going for Spinners, or Lemon Blasts.. that alone makes my head spin! Luckily I have some time to decide, but my point is that the awesome combos producable by crossing Spiders, or Pinstripes, seem to be more interesting than breeding the morph to another of its own morph.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ginevive

This is pretty amazing. To me, it just goes to show how much we all still have to learn fro breeding these snakes. I would have liked to breed Pin x Pin, but like many others I want to do some Pin combos first; that is a goal for the fall of '08 for me. Maybe the desire for combos actually prevents many from buying, say, 1.1 Pin to breed together? I personally am torn between going for Spinners, or Lemon Blasts.. that alone makes my head spin! Luckily I have some time to decide, but my point is that the awesome combos producable by crossing Spiders, or Pinstripes, seem to be more interesting than breeding the morph to another of its own morph.

---

Then there are other crazy combos including Pinstripes; like the awesome jigsaw! All the more reason for Pin owners to want combos x 1000 :)

Just to add onto this conversation - I stumbled across this pertinent post from their mail bag.

Quote:

---

Dear VPI,

I was wondering what the story is with spider ball pythons. I've tried a number of major breeders, and no one had the answer for me! Since you folks are amazing at what you do, I figured I'd throw the question your way and see if you know.

Since spiders don't have a "super" form, then what would a spider x spider breeding yield? if it were like your more standard co-doms, you would theoretically get 25% normals, 50% spiders, and 25% "super spiders". Since obviously that 25% of "super spiders" doesn't exist, does that leave with you with 75% spiders that are all just your standard spiders? Or perhaps that 25% of the spiders produced, though appearing normal, would have "super"-esque traits. By this I mean that similar to the super pastel in that breeding it to a normal would produce all pastels, or in this case all spiders. I haven't been able to find anything on this subject, and as I said I've contacted numerous breeders, and they haven't really known.

Any input you have on this question would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you, Eric

Dear Eric,

I don't know this based on personal experience--we've never bred a spider to a spider--but it's my understanding that the spider mutation is a dominant trait over a normal appearance. So when you breed a spider to a spider, you expect to see 75% of the babies with a spider appearance and 25% appear normal. Of those babies that have a spider appearance, 66% are actually het-normals and 33% are homozygous spiders. But you can't tell them apart unless you breed them.

If you breed a het-normal to a normal, then 50% are normals and 50% appear as spiders (het-normals).

But if you were to breed a homozygous spider to a homozygous normal, then you get all babies with the spider appearance ("het-normals.")

Since the spider appearance appears to be a true dominant trait, with respect to the normal trait, I'm using the term "het-normal" to refer to a snake with a spider appearance that is het for normal--in other words, the "regular" spider that is most often seen. There isn't a "super-spider" in the sense of the common use of "super" with regard to codominant traits. There ought to be a homozygous spider, though--but a homozygous dominant trait can't be told from its het form.

That is how it works if the spider is a dominant trait, at least in theory. The fact is that we have never heard of anyone creating a homozygous spider that when bred to a normal produces 100% spider babies. Surely in the 10 years that the mutation has been around, someone has accomplished it, but not that we've heard of. Maybe the homozygous form of spider is a lethal combination?

I hope that helps, DGB

---

I know the combo appeal is working against me getting answers. I finally got a pair of spiders this year. I'd much rather breed the female spider to my male pastel (another late first for me this year) and go for bumble bee. But after shooting my mouth off about the possibility that spider is homozygous lethal for at least 5 years now I'm obligated to try spider X spider myself. I'm still hoping someone else might come up with the answer by the time my female spider is grown but if not I'll do spider X spider. The hard part is that one breeding is almost sure not to produce a quick and certain answer. If we had data from all the spider X spider breedings already done and the breedings of their offspring we could probably come up with a pretty sure answer already.

It would be awesome if someone wanted to create a huge central database and catalog all genetics of what is produced by all breeders! I don't even think that a god or goddess could pull that one off, though.

I heard that a group of corn snake breeders got together and pooled data to finally get to the bottom of the allele relationship between stripe and motley. It was at least 10 years after the theory was put forth in the original Color Guide to Corn Snakes but they got it done. Maybe as ball python morphs get cheaper we can start to figure out the tricky things here too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Here's a new idea from Dave Barker, I think many will find this little tidbit interesting, and also something I was trying to understand. The possibility that the pinstripe has a gene or other trait closely linked to it that we don't understand yet. Anyways, here's what Dave had to say, I hope he does not mind that I post this.

"Of course, it's possible that one or both conditions are not even genetic, but rather are epigenetic in nature and inheritance. Epigenetics, as I understand it, is the inheritance of traits that are not the expression of a gene, but rather the expression of some other molecules that are associated closely with DNA (I believe these molecules "coat" a strand of DNA").

The fact is that I don't really understand epigenetics, it's a fairly new field of research, and don't have any strong understanding of what all is involved. I have read that epigenetics can cause some pretty strange patterns of inheritance, including inheritance that cannot be explained by classic Mendelian inheritance."


I have cut this from the original message.

---

JUst to clarify, epigenetics involves

(1) the transgenerational inheritance of gene expression patterns
(2) the stable inheritance of gene expression patterns between cell divisions (usually during development)

Most of the research and findings center upon (2)


Both involve chemical modifications ("markers") to DNA and chromosome structure that are heritable and influence the expression of a gene. Many of these chemical modifications are subjected to modulation by environmental factors (chemical exposure, diet, temperature, etc).

While developmental biologists and stem cell researchers are very interested in (1), breeders and geneticists would be most in (2).

Transgenerational effects have been found in mammals and plants. I am not aware of anything in reptiles yet.

Bottom line is that epigenetics tell us that two genetic clones of one another can look very different and yeild very different offspring. The classic example is of a type of trait in mice called agouti.

Agouti mice are fat, yellow, and prone to diseases such as diabetes. The trait is inheritable, but has a strange pattern of inheritance. You see if you have two genetically identical mice one can be agouti while the other one can be normal. Recently, researchers have found that if you expose a mouse's mother to BPA (Bis-Phenol A-a chemical found in some plastic bottles and liners) the chance of it having a agouti appearance goes up dramatically. On the other hand, if you don't expose it to BPA than you dont see the agouti appearance at all.

Furthermore, what they found is that diets high in folic acid and compounds from soy diets reversed the effect in presence of BPA.

For more info see http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3411/02.html

One key insight emerging from epigenetics is that the lifestyle and chemical you are exposed to may affect the biological legacy of your kids and even your kids' kids!

Thanks for another great post Mendel. However, I had to drink my coffee faster just so that my eyes could focus on the big words better. LOL. That was a very interesting read.

Ok, you know in boas they have hypo boas, and super hypos.

Well, you cant tell the difference in the super, and regular, only if you breed them will you tell. So this is the same for spiders and pins right? Should we start labeling spider to spider babies as poss super spider?