Breeding for attitude rather than morph..

Right now I have two ball pythons that are much more aggressive than any others in my collection. They are adults who always hiss when I clean their cages, are very ridged when picked up, and regularly strike if given a little time on the floor to get oriented before I finish cleaning the cage. They are a mother and daughter. I saw something similar in a different mother and son several years ago but they weren’t as bad as these two.

So, while I don't discount environment/experience, I believe there can be a genetic component to ball python temperament.

My main worry is that there are breeders actively selecting for aggressive temperament ball pythons and that over time they might start to loose their reputation as a docile species. There is a general belief that aggressive ball pythons will be better feeders so some might be selecting aggressive normal females or holdback babies of all types to add to their breeding collection.

I haven't yet been able to bring myself to cull this aggressive mother and daughter from my breeding collection because I think they may carry some interesting morph genetics. I'm hoping to be able to prove or disprove that soon. If they prove it will be hard to stop breeding them. If they don’t prove, they wouldn’t make good pets so if I sold them it would probably be to another breeder. I suppose the high road would be to keep them indefinitely but not breed them.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Actually when someone I don't know appears on the scene, making factual statements rather than presenting their thoughts, I don't take them on face value. I do like to know what research or better yet, hands on experience they have backing up a statement of fact they are putting forth.

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Fact such as what? Google is your friend, if you want to verify facts, lol.
A fact is a fact, where it came from isn't relevent, if it's true.
If it's not, then that's what's important--cite something to prove otherwise, and I'll stand corrected gladly. In my opinion, having correct information is king, none of the rest of it matters at all.

There's no way I could possibly produce a research document to support everything I say, I've collected information on herps for over a decade and a half. I absorb everything, but I don't always make a note of where it came from, if the source was legitimate.

So, if you see me state something as a fact when it's not, correct me with some documentation to back it up, and I'll concede easily. Being right is only important to me if I actually AM right.

Then too, I don't think I've been doing a whole lot of citing my opinions as facts around here. I generally take care to be sure that my opinions are stated as opinions, and only actual facts are stated as facts.

The problem seems to arise when someone's opinions contradict the facts. ;)

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Fact such as what? Google is your friend, if you want to verify facts, lol.
A fact is a fact, where it came from isn't relevent, if it's true.
If it's not, then that's what's important--cite something to prove otherwise, and I'll stand corrected gladly. In my opinion, having correct information is king, none of the rest of it matters at all.

There's no way I could possibly produce a research document to support everything I say, I've collected information on herps for over a decade and a half. I absorb everything, but I don't always make a note of where it came from, if the source was legitimate.

So, if you see me state something as a fact when it's not, correct me with some documentation to back it up, and I'll concede easily. Being right is only important to me if I actually AM right.

Then too, I don't think I've been doing a whole lot of citing my opinions as facts around here. I generally take care to be sure that my opinions are stated as opinions, and only actual facts are stated as facts.

The problem seems to arise when someone's opinions contradict the facts. ;)

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You know, A few months back I would have posted a Fact about you here. But I'm the New me.. With that being said Google is Bull:cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:e!

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Right now I have two ball pythons that are much more aggressive than any others in my collection. They are adults who always hiss when I clean their cages, are very ridged when picked up, and regularly strike if given a little time on the floor to get oriented before I finish cleaning the cage. They are a mother and daughter. I saw something similar in a different mother and son several years ago but they weren’t as bad as these two.

So, while I don't discount environment/experience, I believe there can be a genetic component to ball python temperament.

My main worry is that there are breeders actively selecting for aggressive temperament ball pythons and that over time they might start to loose their reputation as a docile species. There is a general belief that aggressive ball pythons will be better feeders so some might be selecting aggressive normal females or holdback babies of all types to add to their breeding collection.

I haven't yet been able to bring myself to cull this aggressive mother and daughter from my breeding collection because I think they may carry some interesting morph genetics. I'm hoping to be able to prove or disprove that soon. If they prove it will be hard to stop breeding them. If they don’t prove, they wouldn’t make good pets so if I sold them it would probably be to another breeder. I suppose the high road would be to keep them indefinitely but not breed them.

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Great point! Be sure to post any findings you make on how the behavior does or does not transfer through genetics. I'd love to hear them!

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

With that being said Google is Bull:cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:e!

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Google is a search engine. It produces relevent web sites based on keywords. It's up to the searcher to determine whether those sites are legitimate sources of information. They could be something thrown up by a 10-year-old, or they could be a government site, or a University site, or any number of other legitimate educational and scientific resources.
If Google is 'bull', then there is no such thing as a good information source on the internet (and what's more that must mean anything previously printed in a book has suddenly become worthless once it's transferred into digital media).
I don't quite understand your opinion on this. :)

I've never been entirely sure where the idea came from that information acquired on the web was 'bad'. Increasingly, libraries are transferring documents and books into digital media. Everything from encyclopedias to in-depth hardcore scientific research papers can be retrieved through a quick Google search. It's no longer true that paper provides more legitimacy than a website. I'm not entirely sure it was ever true.

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Originally Posted by chz

I am just wondering if there are any breeders out there that selectively breed BPs for reasons other than morphs. I think it'd be neat to see people pick out the friendliest ball pythons around and breed em out. Who knows.. maybe we'd get ball pythons with very outgoing personalities similar to boas. Just a thought..

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I have nasty babies from some of the nicest parents. And nice babies from Nasty parents.. In my limited (non google) Experience you cant breed for attitude.. My parents where nice people and look at me..

Well, it's not something that would be clear in a single generation--that should be obvious. You have no idea how many nice or nasty animals were in your snake's ancestry. It would take a fair number of generations of deliberate selection to start to show results. So, unless you've already been working on selecting for temperment, you can't really say whether or not temperment's based on genetics or...hm, what else did you think it was based on?
Choices on that are pretty limited. Incubation temperatures or humidity levels? Pure chance?

Temperment in all other animals that have been bred for it has turned out to be controlled to a large degree by genetics, so why WOULD ball pythons be different?
Sure, environment can have an impact, but were you keeping your nice snakes or nasty snakes in different conditions? Were the nasty snakes traumatized or something?

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Originally Posted by chz

I want a bp that poops when i clap my hands.

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lmao if u prove it out ill buy some.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Well, it's not something that would be clear in a single generation--that should be obvious. You have no idea how many nice or nasty animals were in your snake's ancestry. It would take a fair number of generations of deliberate selection to start to show results. So, unless you've already been working on selecting for temperment, you can't really say whether or not temperment's based on genetics or...hm, what else did you think it was based on?
Choices on that are pretty limited. Incubation temperatures or humidity levels? Pure chance?

Temperment in all other animals that have been bred for it has turned out to be controlled to a large degree by genetics, so why WOULD ball pythons be different?
Sure, environment can have an impact, but were you keeping your nice snakes or nasty snakes in different conditions? Were the nasty snakes traumatized or something?

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Yes I beat all 500 of my snakes! Your a phoney hun. Go google something else Bp's arent your thing!

Hey, wow...mods? Random personal attack, pretty uncalled for. Someone pee in your Wheaties today?