live or frozen mice?

Breeding animals need more food than pets, and a large female going into the breeding season is better off with more food than a small rat once a week. In my opinion.

Anyhow, I think I've presented my side--which was my intention, not to start an argument over it.
(Observing a live feeding is pretty much all you can do...you can't prevent a bite from happening when the snake grabs a rodent wrong. There isn't anything you can do about it except treat the wound afterward. A nip from a young rat is different from a full-force 'omg I'm dying' bite. I have witnessed injuries from bites inflicted by small rats. (Again, small adults--not pups). I'll not argue on the calcium issue, because no studies have been done on it, and I prefer to error on the side of caution. It's my opinion that lower calcium levels can contribute to egg binding, so ensuring that young reptiles have a bit of extra calcium while growing up,and that breeding females get adequate amounts of it, will help prevent that from happening. I think the heavier skeleton of a fully adult rat is an adequate source of calcium, but the immature skeleton of a pup isn't quite enough, so I choose to supplement. Adult mice are fine too, but it takes a lot of them to feed a 3000 gram breeding female ball python. I imagine if you're breeding a rack of mice, it's no big deal, but I've only got 2 rat bins, and one mouse, and no space for much more than that. F/T might be a hassle with a large collection, but I can think of ways to make it less of one. I'll be there eventually myself anyhow, and be happy to let you know how I handle it. ;)

A nonbreeding ball python probably only needs one large prey item every 2 weeks. I'm not sure that feeding a smaller one every week is preferable for the snake's health, either. I know some people have questioned whether giving a snake's digestive system a rest in between meals might be better for it. There are still many things we don't know, and a LOT left to learn. If nothing else, this thread has demonstrated how many different feeding methods can work and result in healthy snakes.

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Breeding animals need more food than pets, and a large female going into the breeding season is better off with more food than a small rat once a week. In my opinion.

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Adam's breeders do fine on one small rat a week. He has just a "little bit" of hands on practical experience in the matter. :cool:

This is fine for him, and what you choose to do is fine for you, etc. I'm sure there are as many opinions on this issue as...well, you know.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'm sure there are as many opinions on this issue as...well, you know.

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That there is. Maybe we can "put this one to bed" now? :P Everyone's opinions have been clearly stated and rebutted and re-rebutted. If it goes much farther, it just degenerates into a game of who gets in the last word...as if that seals the matter on right and wrong. ;)

The old saying theres more than one way to skin a cat applies here also. Find what works for you and your animals. It might take trying a couple of different ways to do that.

So.. Because you have 5 snakes, you've come to this conclusion?

You also realize that fat snakes make horrible breeders, right? Excessive calcium can also lead to seizures and muscle problems as can too little. Stop supplementing the complete diet, they are getting all they need. How do you think baby cornsnakes survive on pinky mice that are barely anything but cartilage and goo? It's because that is all they NEED. Would you supplement your dog's complete dog food with multivitamins/minerals because you didn't think it was complete enough? Do wild snakes get their food handed to them on tongs/paper plates and covered in calcium powder? No.. But hey, they thrive, reproduce and grow perfectly fine. If they didn't, nature would find a way to fix it.

The snakes know what their bodies need and whatever else isn't needed, is excreted. I have a female here who is getting ready for breeding season again. She is 2300g and eats 4-5 mice a week(normally she gets 3 medium adults, unless I have leftovers). She gains weight steadily and at a rapid pace, but she also doesn't defecate more than once a month. This means she's getting an adequate supply of food without being excessive. If she wasn't getting enough calcium, then her eggs would have been undercalcified. She laid 7 HUGE eggs and all were perfectly smooth and white, not even any windowed areas. Needless to say, she's getting what she needs.

And how do you not prevent a bite if the snake grabs a rodent wrong? I know which snake is my stupid eater(one out of 40), so I always watch her and have my hemostats ready. Usually though, she grabs the mouse just fine and even if it does get a nip in, she just constricts tighter. Heaven forbid one of her scales has a minute scratch on it.

A non-breeding Ball does NOT need a large prey item once every 2 weeks. Even my 26lb boa who is almost 8ft long, only gets a 2 POUND, 5-6 week old, rabbit ONCE per month. Why? Because she doesn't need anymore food than that.

Constrictors have VERY slow metabolisms. In the wild, Balls don't eat every week, but rather maybe a whole litter of rodents they found in a burrow, which will last them 2-3 months(or longer). They don't need copious amounts of food to grow, thrive, reproduce and do it all over again. They have evolved this way for a reason.

Since no one has published test results on how much calcium, or whatever vitamin or mineral you choose, a Ball Python needs, then your reasoning has no basis. You could actually be doing harm to your snakes by oversupplementing. When people say a small rat, they mean a rat that is 4-5 weeks old(weaned or a small-small) and one that is around 45-60g in weight. If you've ever raised rats, you would know that babies this size(I've had 2-3 week olds that weighed this much, but they are pets) cannot bite hard whatsoever. Weaned rats' skeletons are fully formed at this point and contain all the calcium a snake will ever need. Yes, a larger rat's skeleton may be bigger, but that doesn't mean it's better than feeding a weaned rat. Large rats are dangerous and there is NO need whatsoever to be feeding that size rat to a Ball Python. They will likely fast for a month or more to let their body digest that meal and catch up.

I know if I was feeding frozen, I would have a TON of wasted, dead mice that I would have to throw away. And that just isn't wise for my budget. If a live mouse doesn't get eaten one week, then I can just stick it back in the tub until next week. For me, live feeding means no wasted feeders going into the trash. It also means mental and physical stimulation/exertion for my snakes. If I'm going to stick them in a 41qt tub for their 35-40 years, then the least I could do is provide them with a little bit of natural activity.

Yes, I have 5 snakes. Right now. I have had more in the past--I'm coming back into herp keeping after a long hiatus.

I'm not the only person who supplements baby rodents by dipping their butt in calcium powder, and doing so is not oversupplementing. I've serious concerns about the health of baby snakes fed nothing but pink mice. Until someone actually does those studies, your opinion is that they're fine, and mine is that they could use a bit more extra calcium.
If your snakes are fine without it, and mine are fine with it, then why do you have to be right?

I could also say something about returning a rejected mouse to the tub, but I'll let the thread rest now.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Yes, I have 5 snakes. Right now. I have had more in the past--I'm coming back into herp keeping after a long hiatus.

I'm not the only person who supplements baby rodents by dipping their butt in calcium powder, and doing so is not oversupplementing. I've serious concerns about the health of baby snakes fed nothing but pink mice. Until someone actually does those studies, your opinion is that they're fine, and mine is that they could use a bit more extra calcium.
If your snakes are fine without it, and mine are fine with it, then why do you have to be right?

I could also say something about returning a rejected mouse to the tub, but I'll let the thread rest now.

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I have a question. Not sharp shooting or trying to start any thing but.

How can you tell whether or not your animals are metabolizing the added calcium

What do you have to say about returning a mouse back to it's tub? All of the snakes are quarantined, have had fecals and vet checks and are healthy. What would it matter? I can see how it would be a problem if you offered the mouse to a snake with a respiratory infection and then immediately gave it to another snake who was healthy. If I offer a mouse to the snake I have with an RI, that mouse goes in a tub by itself for two weeks or is euthanized and tossed(although I don't like wasting life).

And if EVERYONE'S snakes are perfectly healthy, as are the wild snakes, then what makes it ok for you to supplement? Where did this reasoning come from? Who came up with this crapola? What are you going to feed a newborn cornsnake other than day old pinky mice? Anoles? It is physically impossible for them to eat anything other than day old pink mice for awhile. If this didn't work and they didn't grow, I'm sure nature would have found something else they could eat that is more substantial. Pink mice work just fine for a few months until the snake's nutritional requirements change. Then you move up to fuzzies, hoppers, small adults, large adults, and that's about as far as you go with an adult corn.

Unless alot of people start doing radiographs of their snakes' bone densities, and blood calcium levels are tested, then no one will know whether or not the snakes need more or less calcium in their diet.

I'm just going to go off of the 30+ year proven fact that snakes grow and thrive in captivity without added supplementation.