the snake/human relationship

The cat thing is kinda true...when my cat misses...he looks at who is near by and then runs in the other direction. Dont really get a chance to notice facial expressions...but it is a fluffy cat soo...

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I've been too busy to post much lately so who knows if anyone will read this. But, since its pretty much my favorite snakey subject, I can't resist....

I said that "conventional" wisdom (some of which is religiously based) tells us that people are special and that animals are ..well... just animals. I'm not referring to anybody here. I'm referring to the fact that the last several decades have provided alot of scientific evidence to show that animals are indeed capable of complex behaviors previously thought to be solely the domain of humanity.

I'll summarize my argument:

1) Between two species that are very different, there are similar behaviors. Humans are vastly superior to cats yet cats can demonstrate complex behaviors that are very similar to human behaviors. I don't think anybody with alot of cat experience could be sold on the "anthropomorphism" argument. When cat looks likes it is embarrased and angry after being laughed at for botching a jump, it is really what it looks like:embarrassed and angry. It may not be exactly like human embarrasment but its still embarrassment. Its not your imagination.

2) Vast numbers of species on this planet use the same base anatomy. Cats have four legs - but those two front legs are smaller so they are kind of like arms arent they? They have two eyes, two ears, lungs, kidneys, a heart, stomach, small intestine, large intenstine, and so on. A cat's leg is 8 inches long, weighs a few ounces. A humans leg is a few feet long and weighs 10's of pounds. Plus, they have different relative bone lengths and overall shape. Nevertheless, they have the same number of major joints and digits. For example, a cat has four claws and a weird dew-claw on the side and a human has four fingers and a thumb on the side - kind of the same thing isn't it? Furthermore, both types of legs are used for locomotion, defense, etc.

3) If animals share this underlying pattern where all of their anatomies are derivations of a common shared pattern then it follows that animal's brains are also related both in their function and in their operation. I'll return to the comparison of cat and human legs: By some measurements (length, weight, strength) these features are radically different yet they share the same basic form and function. That's why they are both called "legs". Also, humans have brains and cats have brains and everybody readily agrees that they both have the same basic purpose. So, why do we suddenly assume that what goes on inside of those brains is completely different and can't be compared? It seems much more likely that, like the legs, the pattern is the same and its only the scale that changes. IMO, you can imagine what its like to be an animal like this: imagine how dumb you were on the morning of your worst-ever hangover and then imagine having 1/10 that thinking ability. Its kind of a crude way to imagine it but my point is that animals don't have totally different thinking patterns, they just have much simpler versions of the same patterns that we do.
4) The argument holds just as well for cats as it does for snakes. Snakes are simply less sophisticated.

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I'm sorry bear... but that is really just not a well-put together argument... completely based in what you want to believe in, speculation, and not in science or truth.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Cats get embarassed when they botch an attempt at a jump? Where do you get your facts from?

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I've seen it dozens of times. Once in a while, they'll do something something like jump onto the back of the couch, screw it up and make a very un-catlike wipeout. This typically draws a chuckle from those in the room. The response from the cat is to go off into the corner, turn its back, and sit there with this p-o'ed look.

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Originally Posted by darkangel

I'm sorry bear... but that is really just not a well-put together argument... completely based in what you want to believe in, speculation, and not in science or truth.

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Its certainly not ready for publishing but I don't think its flaky. We have kidneys and cats have kidneys. Not only do they both do the same job but they both do it in the same way. So it would suggest that the internal workings of the brains are also *similar*. By similar I mean they have the same types of functions. What I think differs are how powerful (relatively and absolutely) those cognitive powers are.

I don't know that I want to believe it, it just seems obvious to me. I've been pondering this subject long before I got snakes so its not because I want my BP to love me. Most scientific discoveries are simply educated guesses that are later proven. This is simply my guess and nothing more.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

The response from the cat is to go off into the corner, turn its back, and sit there with this p-o'ed look.

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Hmmm, my cats must be embarassed all the time then. They always turn their back on me and sit in a corner or looking at the wall - I just assumed they were being a cat. The things you learn! :rolleyes:

Yea, both of my snakes act jumpier when being held by anyone else.

Your argument has no boundaries. Centipedes have legs, and humans have legs. Humans can feel depressed so centipedes must also be able to feel depressed. It doesn't add up. Do some reading.

I did a little web searching and found that this subject was a pretty loaded one since it tended to fan the flames of the whole evolution vs. genesis argument. Peronsally, I think my theory makes good sense either way.

The vast majority of stuff was concentrated on studying how the human brain evolved to be so much more advanced. This was interesting considering the centipede example so I thought I'd pass it on:
http://www.livescience.com/health/07...orm_brain.html Most of the findings seem to suggest that the human brain is special in that it is very evolved compared to other animals. This, of course, implicitly says that the human brain is also "made of the same stuff" (speaking loosely).

Anyway, its just my personal little theory on the subject. If there's one thing I believe above all others its that we don't know the half of it yet! So who knows! I just like talking about it - its not an argument. There's a very good chance I'm totally wrong and I know it.

your theory... HA

definition of theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"


and how does your rubbish fit into a well substantiated anything? It's just all completely anthropomorphism and your prejudices being pushed on everyone. Sure people would like to think their snake loves them, but it's physically impossible.

And by the way, I love how you pick and choose things as you see fit so that you think that your ideas make sense. All the article that you printed proves is that evolution exists, which was proved a long time ago (at least in my eyes, if anyone feels the need to tell me otherwise and the world was created in 7 days, I don't care, go look at your ball pythons and realize selection happens).

Anyway, moving on to your next crazy set of statements, I can't wait to hear it. But for goodness sakes don't call it a theory, because it's not.

I'm not pushing my ideas onto anybody. I'm just giving my opinion on the subject in this thread. I certainly never flamed you or anything you said so I don't know what your basing your objections on.

You accuse me of cherry-picking but that's what people do in a debate. I suppose you know all about that considering your definition of theory. Here's two sources (note that both of them include something along the lines of "guess" or "conjecture"):

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/theory
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory

You can't rely on the old high-school pocket dictionary forever you know (and yes that includes your middle school one too).