michael moore... sicko

I find it interesting that some selected to attack the source, as opposed to the idea.

First, let's iron out a few misconceptions. Canada is frequently the dead horse beaten for income taxes, however, it's often out of misinformation. Canada's federal taxation is actually lower than the United States for higher tax brackets. For example, the $74,000 tax bracket is 26% income tax in Canada, and 28% in the US.

The individual provinces also charge taxes, like most US states, however they do tax at a higher rate.

So, for example. Someone making $150,000 in Canada will pay $20,609.15 in federal taxes. Of course, I'm not using any type of deductions here, for reasons that it would complicate matters since they are individualized. By comparison, a (single) person in the US earning $150,000 per year, with no deductions is going to pay $34,613.

In the highest taxed province (Newfoundland) the person is also going to pay an additional $22,931.28 in provincial taxes, taking their grand total to $43,540. The highest taxed state in the US is Iowa at 8.9% on ALL income if you make over $55,000. So the final totals?

A single individual making $150,000 per year in Iowa with no deductions: $48,113.
A single individual making $150,000 per year in Newfoundland with no deductions: $43,540.

That's a difference of $4,573 for those that don't like to do math. Since there is a 9% difference between sales tax's between Iowa and Newfoundland, let's play with it a little. Let's say the earner described above pays approximately $50,000 per year in (sales) taxable items. In Iowa, they are going to pay an approximate sales tax of $2500 per year. In Newfoundland, the tax rate is going to be $7,000. Keeping in mind of course, Newfoundland uses an inclusive sales tax... you pay the ticket price, not the ticket price + 14% or whatever.

So in the end, we are looking at the individual in Canada paying approximately $427 more in taxes each year than the person in Iowa. Which, works out to approximately $35/month... and to put it bluntly, that's a HELL of a lot less than I pay in insurance premiums.

Sorry to derail... just felt it was necessary to clear up some misconceptions.

Justin, I'm not positive on how the taxes work in Canada, but in the US the federal income tax rate would only apply to a certain amount of your income.
For instance, in my tax bracket, I only pay taxes on income above $61,000. So even though my tax rate is 25%, it actually evens out to 10% of my total income. That's before we figure in deductions, so it actually comes out to less.

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Originally Posted by SarahMB

Justin, I'm not positive on how the taxes work in Canada, but in the US the federal income tax rate would only apply to a certain amount of your income.
For instance, in my tax bracket, I only pay taxes on income above $61,000. So even though my tax rate is 25%, it actually evens out to 10% of my total income. That's before we figure in deductions, so it actually comes out to less.

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I'm in the US as well, just a hop skip and a jump from Alberta, Canada :). And yes, the numbers I gave use tiered taxes in both cases, as both Canada and the US tier their taxes. The REAL difference is that Canada only has 4 tiers from 15.5% to 29%. The US has 6 from 10% to 35%.

The difference is actually in the smaller amounts between the tier changes. For example, a person in the US is going to pay 25% on any amount between $30,000 and $37,000. Meanwhile, a person in Canada is only going to pay 15.5% up TO the $37,000 cap.

So the $34,613 I quoted for a person in the US, actually only accounts for 23% of their income, even though they would be in the 28% tax bracket.

That being said, it was actually my tax calculations on the Canadian side that were wrong. I missed an entire tax bracket on that side :oops:.

So, the actual difference is more substantial. $8,442 or approximately $700/month. I'll update the numbers in a moment in the original thread... at the end of the day, I'm self-employed and given the differences, it would still be approximately the same for me in either country, since I have to pay all medical premiums out of pocket.

Okay, it's been too long so I can't edit my other post, here's the actual numbers, double-checked this time :P:

US Citizen Total Tax Liability: $48,113
Canadian Citizen Total Tax Liability: $56,555

So, numbers aside, why is it that the US medical system costs nearly twice as much as Canada's, and every other industrialized nation. That's really what bugs me... we're more expensive than any other modern country (I can't remember the numbers, but the average outside of US is $2500 per person per year, while the US is closer to $4500 per person per year).

Something needs to change clearly... I'm just not smart enough to know what.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

So, numbers aside, why is it that the US medical system costs nearly twice as much as Canada's, and every other industrialized nation. That's really what bugs me... we're more expensive than any other modern country (I can't remember the numbers, but the average outside of US is $2500 per person per year, while the US is closer to $4500 per person per year).

Something needs to change clearly... I'm just not smart enough to know what.

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been led to understand that the cost of US Health Care is a trickle-down effect from how much insurance hospitals and doctors have to carry in order to practice. It's VERY expensive for a doctor to be insured, so to make up that amount, a visit costs an arm and a leg. To prevent paying an arm and a leg, Citizens have health insurance to lessen the costs in case of emergency/hospital stays/expensive monthly medications, etc.

If you go to some modern health care countries--with more socialized systems, if you go see a doctor and an accident happens, that's bad luck. You move on. If you go see a doctor in the US and an accident happens, the patient sues--which goes back to the insurance being expensive for doctors issue...

That's how I've understood it--so I guess the change needs to start with the insurance companies and maybe with the mindset of the American people?

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Originally Posted by AzureN1ght

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been led to understand that the cost of US Health Care is a trickle-down effect from how much insurance hospitals and doctors have to carry in order to practice. It's VERY expensive for a doctor to be insured, so to make up that amount, a visit costs an arm and a leg. To prevent paying an arm and a leg, Citizens have health insurance to lessen the costs in case of emergency/hospital stays/expensive monthly medications, etc.

If you go to some modern health care countries--with more socialized systems, if you go see a doctor and an accident happens, that's bad luck. You move on. If you go see a doctor in the US and an accident happens, the patient sues--which goes back to the insurance being expensive for doctors issue...

That's how I've understood it--so I guess the change needs to start with the insurance companies and maybe with the mindset of the American people?

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I certainly thinks that is part of it.. But let's assume, for a moment, that the US health care cost per person is only $1000 more than Canada or France. If we assume torts are the primary cause of that, we are talking about a overall difference of $301,139,947,000. I have a little trouble believing that torts account for $300 billion dollars every year.

A crux of the problem IMHO, is that every different middle man in the medical industry is looking to make a buck. So they all rise together and say "Hey, it's these people suing us that's making insurance rates so high." So, we go on a tort reform rampage, and rates still rise faster than any other industrialized nation on Earth.

I think the oil industry is taking notes from the medical industry. Both are starting to ask the question, "Just how much can we screw these people for, before they start changing their habits?"

There are a lot of agenda's in every industry. Most of them have deep pockets, just as most politicians have open hands. So, the question I ask, is what's it going to take for habit's to change? Whether those habit's mean refusing to become medical consumers. Or driving cars with better gas mileage. Or voting for an X when we usually vote for Y.

The bottom line is, only we as voters can effect change. And the line below the bottom line is... we don't want to.:(

I've read that malpractice suits have very little impact on the overall cost of health care. I'm all for caps on them, either way.

I also read that doctor fees have more to do with costs than anything else. I don't know how true that is, but what I read is that doctors in America make about 5 times what doctors in Canada make. It's also causing a huge brain drain in Canada from what I understand.

The cost of a doctors insurance to practice is probably the same as it is on their 3500sqr foot home a year. Do the math if a doctor sees 20 people a day working 4 days a week and only takes 2 weeks vacation. Thats 4000 people a year the average a harvard study showed that "Today's health insurance policies -- with high deductibles, co-pays, and many exclusions -- offer little protection during a serious illness. Uncovered medical bills averaged $13,460 for those with private insurance at the start of their illness."
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...tcy_study.html
Lets say that insurance covered 50% of that average. So the total average medical bill before insurance is 26000.

Now lets say you take the 4000 people a year that get seen by that one doctor you take 26000 X 4000 = thats 10,400,00.00 a year to the hospitals per doctor on average. Now say the doctor takes home 2% a year of thats 208,000 a year or around 20 grand a month.

Doctors can afford to pay the insurance cost go up cause it not like apple juice when you need medical care you either pay it or die. :D

Sounds like a win win for the doctors and hospital's.

WOMAN DIES IN E.R.

The hospital staff watched her die in the waiting room. Two people called 911 and were told to stop calling it was for emergency's only!!! She was vomiting blood and screaming in pain. She died 45 minutes later in the waiting room from a perforated bowel.

http://www.foxnews.com/bigstory/index.html

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

WOMAN DIES IN E.R.

The hospital staff watched her die in the waiting room. Two people called 911 and were told to stop calling it was for emergency's only!!! She was vomiting blood and screaming in pain. She died 45 minutes later in the waiting room from a perforated bowel.

http://www.foxnews.com/bigstory/index.html

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Police even tried arresting her for violating parole...how messed up can a hospital be? from my understanding they have been warned before about getting their act together or being shut down, that is gonna be one heck of a law suit.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19207050/

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/heal...86/detail.html

Woman dies in ER.


Don't give me negative rep points for this.

I am sorry, but I worked at Walter Reade Hospital (when it was good:1982-4), and I had my share of incidents that looked bad but were really not so bad.

Look at the picture of the person in the article, read the descriptions of the phone calls.

DON'T JUDGE ME, BUT PREJUDICE USUALLY FOLLOWS IN THE WAKE OF REALITY. Stereotypes exist because they reflect a true condition.

Here is an obese woman with an obnoxious family. She is in the waiting room of one of the worst hospitals in LA. Vomiting blood is bad, but mostly is not life threatning. Usually the result of a food allergy or ulcer. Had she been bleeding from the rectum then it would have been a different matter. Also writhing on the floor is often used by low class people to draw attention to themselves.

Many ERs are now used to it and put those people on the bottom of the list. It is a matter of triage. If the ER staff can show that they did a preliminary evaluation and that they had other patients with more sever cases before this one then the hospital is usually safe from a major lawsuit. That is just the way it is.

I speak from experience. It is not a good experience and I am generally a giving person, but I have seen a LOT of abuse of ER staff from obnoxious patrons.