Burn point...

oh yea I've got the dimmer working great now. I've been checking it daily and tweaking it. Its nice and stable and he can't get access to anything higher than 95. Just because I'm argumentative doesn't mean I don't listen! :D

whata happens when youre out all day? you can't be there to moniter the temps and your UTH spikes, then what? with a thermostat, atleast it will shut off the UTH and no harm will be done. but the rheostat won't do that, it'll keep giving the UTH power.

this is why i switched to a thermostat, my rheostat had too much change in temps and no safety if the UTH spiked. for someone that has one snake, yea a rheostat is nice and cheap, and you would check it more frequently. but people with more need a little more piece of mind.

Well mostly I was just pointing out the flaws in each approach. Both can fail.

* Uncontrolled systems will fluctuate more but there is not risk of drastic change if the probe fails or is moved.

* Controlled systems will deliver constants temps but, if the probe fails to accurately measure the temperature at the snake, they will subject your snake to incorrect temperatures.

Another way to look at this is that using a rheostat is like having a t-stat system where a human is doing the adjustments instead of a piece of electronics. The electronics will provide consistency and vigilance a human cannot but, if something goes wrong, a human is smart enough to take corrective action (i.e. "Hey, this can't be right...").


A simple heating element attached directly to an outlet (i.e. an UTH) is going to produce a constant amount of energy. It will be unlikely to actually "spike" in that sense. However, the measured temperature does change significantly because of the snake. I'm finding that its important to make adjustments only when the temperature is reading high. This is usually when the snake has been in for some time. The mistake is to freak out when you see the temperature at a low and adjust upwards. Then you come back later and go "Crap, its at 98d!!" and set it back down. Repeat.

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I did a little research on African weather and I should post some of it. On one hand you can clearly see where the recommended hi/low temperatures come from. But, it also shows you what ranges there are. For example:

* For nearly 2/3 of the year the night-time temperatures drop to 75 or below.

* Day to day, the day-time highs fluctuate by 5 to 10 degrees.

* For only 3 to 5 months do daytime highs actually lie in the recommended hi-side temps. For the rest of the year they are higher or lower. For about 5 mos daytime highs are 97+. For 2-3 mos daytime highs are in the 80d to 90g range.

* For the majority of the year, the ambient temperature regularly changes by 15d to 20d over a 24 hour period.

What I took away from it all was that the husbandry recommendations were indeed correct but that posts from people saying things like "thermostats are cheaper than vets" and suggesting that I was killing my snake unless he is at 90-92 degrees all the time are totally off-base.

Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting anyone change their setup. All of this is just education for myself and anybody else who's interested.

Hi Bearhart,


You raised some good points about both the control systems and the african environment.

As someone who also has a qualification in electronics ( though only a stinky 2 year diploma :P ) I see your point but feel there are a few wrinkles to be smoothed out.

The heatmats can indeed spike but not in the way you think - some are prone to developing "hot spots" on their surface as they age or through damage though this should be seen as a rare event I think. This is similar but less common than the problem with heat rocks.

Some of the better thermostats also have a secondary protection built in to shutoff in the case of a failure in the primary electronics - primarily these trip if the output has been running at full for a set period of time or if the temp probe records a temp above a set variance. I think someone more familiar with these should jump in to give a better explanation as the only ones that do that over here (by microclimate I beleive) have several negative features so I never actually bought any.

You mention the snake affecting the readings but most people recomend placing the probe in an area where the snake will not be able to move or interfere with its operation like taped to the bottom of the UTH outside the tank altogether.

Onto the weather in Africa,:)

The first point is the ability to move within a much larger environment. Ball pythons seem to spend a large amount of time in termite mounds or rodent burrows which are known for stable temps whatever the outside temperatures are doing.

Thus while the range measured as ambient in the weather stations do indeed vary considerably they do not give an entirely accurate reflection of the temp range utilised by the animals who have the whole of the landscape as well as the aforementioned termite mounds etc. to thermoregulate with.

The second point is that you mention highs of 97f (which the animal can get away from) but a UTH uncontrolled can reach 110f or higher - and that's on my livingroom floor not a tank which may have another source of heating to raise ambients and thus compound the problem. I don't beleive in keeping the snake at 90-92 but I do believe its healthy for the animal to have access to a temperature range between 80-93f (approximately) at all times (except breeding) so that it can choose its own preferred temperature.

I don't believe it was anyones intention to Accuse you of trying to kill your snake but thermostats are cheaper than vets, varying the depth of the substrate isn't adequate prevention as the snake can move it back just as easily and it really was possible for your snake to get badly burnt.

I'm sorry to be so blunt but, while there are indeed different thoughts on keeping these animals, the people who tried to help weren't totally off-base.

If you have a tank large enough then feel free to provide the full temperature range experienced in africa - it will be one heck of a snake palace and the opportunities for tank design are breathtaking.

But no matter how large the tank I still feel you should never expose it to the temperatures your initial setup could concievably have allowed.

This post came off a little less polished than I intended and for that I freely appologise but in the interests of eductation and for those who may read this in the future I felt it was important to correct some of the points.

Remember I enjoy debate so feel free to tell me why I'm wrong.:D



dr del

Thanks for the reply Dr. Del! I'm not going to reply in full right this second but I'll get a couple of things out of the way.

Yea, I'll admit I was a bit irritated by a few of the posts. Some were not helping to develop a deeper discussion. In others, the poster clearly had read only the first few posts. Indeed, vets are more expensive than t-stats. And, however flippant some of the posts were, the intent was always genuinely positive and I can't fault anybody for that.

Also, I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to tell anybody that they are negligent because they are using a t-stat. In fact, I believe a controlled system with certain safety features is the best solution.

I'm an engineer by trade so I tend to love drilling down on issues. Its all because I love my snake and think everybody should chuck their cats and dogs out on the street and get one (just kidding!!). But, seriously, I do strongly believe that not over-stressing the importance of any particular point is as important as not under-stressing it. Why? Because it adds noise that drounds out the more important things and it makes the whole task of having a snake more demanding - and less popular. Snakes need awareness because, like it or not, they are still on humanities ****-list.

Well that was my er... quick reply. I'll post the techy stuff in a little bit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

What I took away from it all was that the husbandry recommendations were indeed correct but that posts from people saying things like "thermostats are cheaper than vets" and suggesting that I was killing my snake unless he is at 90-92 degrees all the time are totally off-base.

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I don't see anyone suggesting that. In fact, I think the only time anyone mentioned risk of death was when you said you had a UTH temp of 100+.

But a few notes on your research. I'm not really sure if you did your research on BP-specific countries or not, but here's a few points of interest related to the country most BPs are found.

The average low temperature in Accra, Ghana is right around 75 degrees. The average high is 88 degrees. The highest recording temp in Ghana since they started recording temps was 100 degrees. Otherwise the recorded high is not much higher than the average high.

As Del said, BPs can help regulate that by moving into rodent burrows and termite mounds. The earth is going to stay similar to the temps outside, but with less variation.

So, because they survive in the wild when the exterior temps are 75 is that what we should set ours at? Of course not. Remember, your African temps are misleading... in Africa they have thousands of square miles to travel to regulate temps, not to mention burrows, mounds etc. In the average rack they have 3 feet by 1/2 or so. So the temps you set them, is the ONLY temps they get, which is why we have to be a good deal more prudent in offering them the ideal temperatures, as far as we know.

Wow... good discussion on temps! honestly, its good everyone is looking into the details on real African temperatures, but these are hardy animals! and i'm sure every snake's preferred temps are different. just be reasonable, provide a gradient within a good range, and let the snake do what it likes.

Bearhart: if you're worried about the UTH not being adequate at your new temps, get an infrared spot for nighttime over the UTH, and a tight beam basking spot for the day. if you're getting a tight beam, just don't get one too strong. the combination should do well... I've personally put some smooth rocks in the cage to help harness the warmth of the lights/UTH. measure the temp of the rock in the basking spot if you really want to know how warm your snake's body will be.

I have my own question that can be added to the mix. I've just got a small 6x8 zoomed UTH to put underneath the second hide i just got him. I use a rheostat, as well as a digital thermometer to manually adjust temps.

people are talking about putting the probe where the snake is at, essentially touching the snake. personally, i have put my temperature probe right on the glass underneath all the substrate up against the UTH, and then adjusted the rheostat so that there is a constant temp of 95-97.

1. is this placement of temp probe a good bet for preventing burns, yet keeping substrate temps good for him in his warm-side-hide? substrate is about 2" thick. how high can you push the temps right against the glass??? my dude usually only burrows in the corners, but i don't want to risk anything.

2. Also, should I lower the temp of the UTH under his warm-side-hide at night, or just let him decide to go to the cool-side-hide?

my apologies for posting my own questions here, hope i don't hijack the thread.

Cheers.
BR

Yea, this is getting fun! Good replies all around and I don't really disagree with anything.

Thermometer placement: I attempt to place mine on the surface of the substrate so that the snake lays on it or right next to it. I accomplish this by anchoring the probe lead at the edge of the hide leaving only about 3/4" of slack. At this short length the wire is relatively stiff and it can't be pushed very far. My motivation if, of course, to attempt to get the most accurate reading of the snake's actual temperature.

There are a couple of issues with this. Firstly, if your snake has been out and is cooled down and then goes and lays on the probe the reading will dip for a while which can be disconcerting. Secondly, because it is so close to him if he burrows down he can sometimes push more substrate up under the probe which also will result in lower readings (lower than actual readings are what will cause you (or a t-stat) to jack the temperatures up too high).

I may try a slightly different configuration or I may just blow it off entirely because I can usually spot bad readings and I never adjust the rheo much at any one time.

So, like I mentioned above, the dangerous case is when you are reading a temperature that is actually lower than where your snake is. In an attempt to correct the erroneous reading, you (or a t-stat) will increase the power and subject the snake to a higher temp than you realize. Because of this I keep the substrate very thin (1/2" max) over the UTH. Before I got a rheostat I used to judge by placing my hand over the substrate and I found out very quickly that thickening the substrate brings the temperature down quite a bit. So, what you don't want to do is have alot of substrate and then measure on the surface. The reason is that the glass temperature will have to be much hotter to compensate for the insulating effect of the substrate. If your snake burrows then it could be subjected to extreme heat. However, if the substrate is thin then the surface temp and the glass temp are going to be within 5 degrees or so and burrowing poses less of a risk.

African Weather: I wasn't confident that I had selected a location that was ideal habitat so I went back using google earth and found a spot in ghana that appeared to better match the description of where balls are found. Indeed, the weather was more temperate at this location than my first try. Descriptions of ball python territory suggest their area is very large so this could also suggest that they can handle a wider range of temperatures. Anyway, my new selection showed daytime highs ranging from 90-93 in the summer and 80-85 in the winter (sound familiar?). However, they also showed night-time temps between 70 and 75 all year.

What does it mean? Well as Dr. Del pointed out, I am reporting ambient temperatures and snake hang out in burrows and do other things to control their body temperature. Likewise, I know my snake has come in contact with 105d surfaces for significant periods of time. (I wouldn't recommend doing this on purpose - I know I won't be). But, when his hide was very hot he would cycle between it and a cold spot and it was clear he was "thermoregulating".

You'll see, if you read the earlier parts of this thread, there were some comments about a snakes inability to sense its body temperature that I believe were incorrect. I think a snake can't sense if he's getting burned on the surface but I also think it can very accurately tell what its body temperature is. I think all the data backs this up.

So here's what I think (drum roll please)...

I think that the core problem is that the snake will ignore body temp concerns if it feels too insecure. This is how mine flourished for several months with a hide between 95 and 105 and yet there is a very sad story on this same thread about a similar case that was fatal.

I have some theories on how the husbandry recommendations could be improved but they're still in the formative stages...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spudz11

Wow... good discussion on temps! honestly, its good everyone is looking into the details on real African temperatures, but these are hardy animals! and i'm sure every snake's preferred temps are different. just be reasonable, provide a gradient within a good range, and let the snake do what it likes.

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Yea, I swear my BP likes it hot. Ever since I've backed the temperatures down he almost always burrows right to the glass. I'm still fiddling with it but part of me really feels that to really give him the full temperature range to work with the hottest point actually needs to be just a bit TOO hot for him to stay in all the time. I suppose a real-world example would be a rock or other surface in direct sunlight that a ball may use for basking. They stay there for a bit but not for extended periods...

Also, I'd like to point out that I'm not doing all this to cause trouble or for competitive reasons. I'm doing this because of how frusterating my experience was as a new BP owner. There are so many different tips and everybody assigns a different importance to each of them. I don't like discrepancies - especially when it comes to my Snakey. :taz:

You can get alot of high quality information off of this site but what concerns me are all the people who buy snakes every day and, for practical reasons, simply can't be educated to this level right there in the pet store. So, what I'm really searching for are the real fundamental points. The 60-second version of ball python care, so to speak. This is why this particular issue is so interesting. Because its complicated and what alot of people here consider "essential" is nowhere near the average setup you walk out of the pet store with. So I wonder, how essential is it? Or are these just a bunch of hard-core types that have standards that are not applicable to your more casual owner? Or, are these things essential but are there ways to address them that are cheaper and less complicated?