The effects of ball pythons on the reptile community

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Tazers help! :(

-adam

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ohhh.. that sounds fun!

You know what I find relatively amusing about the whole $20.00 setup thing? Who here spent $20.00 for their rack system? I know that even small fry rack systems like AP's are going to run you around $72.00 per enclosure, and closer to $100.00 per enclosure for top of the line rack systems.

Something that is clearly uninformed shouldn't be taken at value, it shouldn't even be taken at wholesale value. Personally, I think any herp keeper that is busy spreading this type of (mis)information is suffering from either envy, or butthurt that their "club" is being infiltrated by hobbiests.

Time and time again, rack systems have proven to provide better eaters, less nervous snakes and a longer and more stable quality of life. How in the world can that be construed as a "bad thing"?

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

You know what I find relatively amusing about the whole $20.00 setup thing? Who here spent $20.00 for their rack system? I know that even small fry rack systems like AP's are going to run you around $72.00 per enclosure, and closer to $100.00 per enclosure for top of the line rack systems.

Something that is clearly uninformed shouldn't be taken at value, it shouldn't even be taken at wholesale value. Personally, I think any herp keeper that is busy spreading this type of (mis)information is suffering from either envy, or butthurt that their "club" is being infiltrated by hobbiests.

Time and time again, rack systems have proven to provide better eaters, less nervous snakes and a longer and more stable quality of life. How in the world can that be construed as a "bad thing"?

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I spent under $20 per tub when it was all said and done for my rack. Homebuilt out of melamine, 1x4, and 1x2

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Originally Posted by joyful girl

ohhh.. that sounds fun!

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That's what I'm talking about! :8:

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Originally Posted by tmlowe5704

I spent under $20 per tub when it was all said and done for my rack. Homebuilt out of melamine, 1x4, and 1x2

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I'm sure your not the only one. My only complaint was with the accusation that it was the status quo to spend $20.00 per tub. I wholeheartedly disagree with that, since I doubt many major breeders are out in the shop building racks. Most Iris tubs will cost you ~$12.00 alone, so it seems a bit silly to make such a statement.

Its not the "$20.00" per tub thing, it doesn't make a difference what you spend on a rack space....

Its not like the people think you should spend XXX.XX amount on an enclosure, if rack systems cost $300 per tub they would still have a problem with it.

Its the utilitarian type setup that they take issue with.

Tubs make it easier to keep the BP cleaner. You bascially have the tub, hide and water bowl to sanitize....in a larger enclosure, all of the decorations..etc have to be sanitized....more room for laziness on the part of the keeper.

All I know is that I use tubs. I also have 29 happy, healthy consistently eating Ball Pythons.

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Originally Posted by monk90222

Tubs make it easier to keep the BP cleaner. You bascially have the tub, hide and water bowl to sanitize....in a larger enclosure, all of the decorations..etc have to be sanitized....more room for laziness on the part of the keeper.

All I know is that I use tubs. I also have 29 happy, healthy consistently eating Ball Pythons.

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You're preaching to the choir....;)

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I can understand about the gripes people have with the way people house ball pythons.

My neighbor's girlfriend is convinced I'm an evil animal hater because I lock the poor snakes in a dark rack with nothing but a water bowl and a hide and feed them a live rodent once a week.

Its no secret that people tend to dislike what they do not understand.

If I had the time and resources to keep every single one of my ball pythons in an enclosure that would accurately mimic their natural environment, I would - but that is simply IMPOSSIBLE, even if I had only one ball python.

What I do know is this - from what I've seen, ball pythons raised by even newbie keepers in rack systems are by and large healthier than the average ball python in the average home with the average keeper in the average setup. Something has got to be said for that.

Some animals need a lot of space. Ball pythons do not. Applying universal rules to a hobby where there are so many different species and care requirements, there's going to be conflict. The people who say that keeping ball pythons in rack systems is cruel don't have a clue about what they are talking about.

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The only truly naturalistic environment for an animal is an ecosystem with predators, parasites, competing species, and a gene pool subjected to the selective pressures of the environment and potential mates.

I think it boils down to animal welfare vs. rights somewhat.....rack and tub systems are easy to heat and maintain the well-being of ball pythons. The number one priority for animals in human care is their health and vitality.

An animal in the wild infested with parasites, stressed over a recent encounter with a predator, and underfed is in some ways more "naturalistic" than our captive animals. But our captive animals in tub/rack systems are probably a lot "healthier". They may not be able to hunt as well if they've been fed F/T. But you get my overall point.

Most ball keepers are not zoo keepers, who try to recapitulate some naturalistic elements of an ecosystem (flora and mutualistic species) for educational purposes...so I see no reason expect pure personal aesthetics for most amateur herpers to favor "naturalistic" aquarium set-ups.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

The only truly naturalistic environment for an animal is an ecosystem with predators, parasites, competing species, and a gene pool subjected to the selective pressures of the environment and potential mates.

I think it boils down to animal welfare vs. rights somewhat.....rack and tub systems are easy to heat and maintain the well-being of ball pythons. The number one priority for animals in human care is their health and vitality.

An animal in the wild infested with parasites, stressed over a recent encounter with a predator, and underfed is in some ways more "naturalistic" than our captive animals. But our captive animals in tub/rack systems are probably a lot "healthier". They may not be able to hunt as well if they've been fed F/T. But you get my overall point.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Most ball keepers are not zoo keepers, who try to recapitulate some naturalistic elements of an ecosystem (flora and mutualistic species) for educational purposes...so I see no reason expect pure personal aesthetics for most amateur herpers to favor "naturalistic" aquarium set-ups.

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I can understand why the average herper would want an attractive aquarium setup - but the thing to keep in mind is that all those plants and nooks and crannies are breeding ground for bacteria and other ill stuff - so all of those things that supposedly look 'natural' are really for the keeper and not the snake. I think that the success of keeping healthy ball pythons in rack systems is a testament to the fact that ball pythons don't necessarily *need* all of that natural flora to maintain an overall positive well being.

Don't think I'm saying that natural viv's are bad for ball pythons nor are their keepers for setting them up like that. For me, even with my relatively small collection, maintaining a group set up like that would be a full-time job.