humane way to prekill rats?

Neonatal rodents do not have a resistance to hypoxia and I don't know where you have heard that baloney before. I have CO2'd them as well as used canned air, and they go to sleep extremely fast. Yes, they may still be able to breathe while being partially sat on by their mother, but babies can definitely suffocate if oxygen deprivation occurs.

I used to feed p/k and f/t mice/rats to my snakes(still do with the Ratsnake occasionally and with the cornsnakes), but putting the mouse in a pillowcase doesn't mean a quick death. I have had some mice that didn't die after the first whack, and it just isn't fair to the rodent to have to whack it 2-3 more times. It would be like a car that slammed up against a brick wall and you didn't have your seatbelt on. You may still be alive with internal injuries, brain damage, lung collapse, diaphragmatic hernias, etc. You may not die for a few hours. Sounds like a great death to me...

I prefer using CO2 or canned air found at Walmart. I have also put them to sleep using Isofluorane and Euthasol, but not everyone has that just laying around like I do :)

You can also make a mixture of baking soda and vinegar, makes carbon dioxide, and works just the same(a bit messy though).

I think we need to have a bit more respect for the rodents that feed and keep our snakes healthy and happy. If you choose to feed live, please do it correctly and if you feed p/k or f/t, I say the exact same thing. Do it right! The snakes seem to do a much better job of dispatching rodents, so why not feed live instead of you not killing a rat or mouse on the first blow and they suffer for it?

*teps off soapbox*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Neonatal rodents do not have a resistance to hypoxia and I don't know where you have heard that baloney before. I have CO2'd them as well as used canned air, and they go to sleep extremely fast. Yes, they may still be able to breathe while being partially sat on by their mother, but babies can definitely suffocate if oxygen deprivation occurs.

I used to feed p/k and f/t mice/rats to my snakes(still do with the Ratsnake occasionally and with the cornsnakes), but putting the mouse in a pillowcase doesn't mean a quick death. I have had some mice that didn't die after the first whack, and it just isn't fair to the rodent to have to whack it 2-3 more times. It would be like a car that slammed up against a brick wall and you didn't have your seatbelt on. You may still be alive with internal injuries, brain damage, lung collapse, diaphragmatic hernias, etc. You may not die for a few hours. Sounds like a great death to me...

I prefer using CO2 or canned air found at Walmart. I have also put them to sleep using Isofluorane and Euthasol, but not everyone has that just laying around like I do :)

You can also make a mixture of baking soda and vinegar, makes carbon dioxide, and works just the same(a bit messy though).

I think we need to have a bit more respect for the rodents that feed and keep our snakes healthy and happy. If you choose to feed live, please do it correctly and if you feed p/k or f/t, I say the exact same thing. Do it right! The snakes seem to do a much better job of dispatching rodents, so why not feed live instead of you not killing a rat or mouse on the first blow and they suffer for it?

*teps off soapbox*

---

Awesome post Becky! I like the part about showing respect for the rats.

Sevo, excellent post by you as well!!!

Lets leave the whackings to the Sopranos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Neonatal rodents do not have a resistance to hypoxia and I don't know where you have heard that baloney before. I have CO2'd them as well as used canned air, and they go to sleep extremely fast. Yes, they may still be able to breathe while being partially sat on by their mother, but babies can definitely suffocate if oxygen deprivation occurs.

*teps off soapbox*

---

Becky, please know something about physiology befor posting someting about it being "baloney".. sure the will "suffocate" but we are talking about in a timley humane matter.. As a matter of fact Neonate rats have a different oxy hemoglobin association, This meaning, they are a little more tollerant to the effects of CO2 than adult rats because they do live in a more CO2 (acidodic) enriched enviroment inutero and while they are in there first week of life.
Soooo Co2 yes will kill them but not in the same amount of time it takes to kill a adult or older pup. So instead of them becoming more hypoxic and delaying their death it helps to stun them with the CO2, . but hey i guess i and all these reference dont know waht the hell they are talking about since YOU gassed "em in a can"


please remember euthanasia is derived from the Greek terms eu meaning good and thanatos meaning death. A
“good death” would be one that occurs with minimal
pain and distress... your canned CO2 of a neonate is not so good.. but hey thanks for the for the scentific explaination of why you feel it is baloney.

1. Danneman PJ, Stein S, Walshaw SO. Humane and practical implications of using carbon dioxide mixed with oxygen for anesthesia or euthanasia of rats. Lab Anim Sci 1997, 47:376-385.
2. AVMA Panel on Euthanasia. 2000 Report of the AVMA Panel on Euthanasia. J Am Vet Med Assoc 2001, 218:669-696. pdf file
3. Guidelines for the Euthanasia of Mouse and Rat Fetuses and Neonates. NIH Animal Research Advisory Committee, 2001.

oh yeah for somneone who uses ISo i figured would know a little about CO2 and the neonate enviroment.. but hey i guess the FDA or even the vet you work for would love to know that ISO is being used for recreational gassings,... not to mention that is SOOOO illegal but hey you are a RVT.

I would hope I know something about anatomy and physiology, I am an RVT...

And who said I killed them in a can? I euthanize litters with CO2 or canned air, pinkies all the way up to hoppers. They all pass away the same way; they fall asleep, breathing becomes slower and more eratic, and they die peacefully. It doesn't take more than 2-4 minutes in the ziploc bag. I guess 2 minutes while asleep isn't a timely and humane euthanasia? I have had dogs and cats do the whole agonal breathing thing for AN HOUR after they were deceased or animals with decreased cardiac function take a good 30 minutes to go to sleep.

Also, who said I used Isofluorane for recreational purposes? I am under the general supervision of a licensed veterinarian and I know all of the mechanics of an anesthesia machine. I use them daily where I work and at school(where I keep and breed mice and a few rats for the laboratory students to work with). I am allowed to euthanize animals by myself for the purposes of laboratory work and otherwise.

I surely hope you would stop with your presumptuous attitude as we all know where that leads. In the years I have done this, no one has ever mentioned that neonates have an increased resistance to carbon dioxide, not even veterinarians or my teachers(who are veterinarians and RVTs). Even research facilities such as the cancer research facility in Temple, Texas ran by Scott and White Hospital have never mentioned this and they euthanize hundreds of mammals daily. Hm..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

I surely hope you would stop with your presumptuous attitude as we all know where that leads. In the years I have done this, no one has ever mentioned that neonates have an increased resistance to carbon dioxide, not even veterinarians or my teachers(who are veterinarians and RVTs). Even research facilities such as the cancer research facility in Temple, Texas ran by Scott and White Hospital have never mentioned this and they euthanize hundreds of mammals daily. Hm..

---

Ask any vet about the oxygen reduced and acidodic enviroment that the rats live inutero and for the first week of life.. here is a qucik phys lesson.. CO2 is really a acid. So if you live in acidodic state you are less affected by increased CO2.. why, as mentioned it is a acid... SOOO an increas in CO2 will kil them but it takes longer. Especailly for those who dont have other respiratory depressants on board such as ISO.. please ask your vet to explain it better i really dont have time to disprove your ziplock bag theroy.

please remember... there's a polite way to disagree and an impolite way... please choose the former not the latter.:wuv:

Ya know, I'm the last person that should ever be critical of someone's "attitude" ... but if I'm going to rail on someone, I at least make sure that person deserves it for acting like a tool ... Becky certainly does not ... She is one of the shining stars of this site with both academic and hands on knowledge that most can't touch with a ten foot pole.

Poor taste my friend.

-adam (aka “The pot” … Hi kettle!!!)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

-adam (aka “The pot” … Hi kettle!!!)

---

:8:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

In the years I have done this, no one has ever mentioned that neonates have an increased resistance to carbon dioxide, not even veterinarians or my teachers(who are veterinarians and RVTs). Even research facilities such as the cancer research facility in Temple, Texas ran by Scott and White Hospital have never mentioned this and they euthanize hundreds of mammals daily. Hm..

---

http://oacu.od.nih.gov/ARAC/euthanasia.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?id=OIZ...u3Ms#PPA256,M1

Check out #4....Sevo and his references are right. Neonatal rats and mice are more resistant to carbon dioxide for exactly the reason he stated. When I use to manage a transgenic mouse colony I saw this first hand.

Now you could debate whether it is "humane" or not, but bottom line is that it takes longer to euthanize neonates with CO2 than adults.

Old thread.....I know.....but he was right.