What's With Keeping Snakes In Racks Small Without Hides?

Keeping any animal in "to small of a space for its needs" is cruel.

Now...there ARE animals where the opposite is true. Keeping them in TO LARGE of a space for their needs is cruel.

We always have to remember NOT to project our own needs and necessities onto other species.

And about this whole "enrichment" thing.

What does "enrichment" mean ? Something that enriches my life. Things that make me happy enrich my life. Feeling safe enriches my life. Long hikes through nature enriches my life. The sky, sun, beautiful weather. Fun things to do, travel. Friends, family, kids, spouse.

Most humans need some of those and other things to have enrichment in their lives.

When it comes to animals, "enrichment" is the new "in vogue" thing. It is usually used in context with making the space they live in more "interesting", not so boring and blah.

But what about species that care nothing for a jungle gym? Does it "enrich" their lives ? What about a species that prefers small and dark places, does it enrich their lives to offer large spaces full of "stuff" to do ?

And then..if that animal is "all over that stuff" does it mean it needs that stuff? Wants that stuff? How do we know it isn't simply going around all that in its search for food ? Or stressed over it?

Going back to Ball Pythons, we know in the wild they spend a LARGE amount of time in tight, dark spaces. They even oftentimes just "lie in wait" for food to walk by. Once they have to poop or pee, they are forced to find another "small, dark space" because the smell would give them away, and no food would just "walk by".
They also travel when they are looking to breed. Some may seek out food, for sure, or travel short distances for other reasons like to find water. But by far and large, they spend their time "hiding".

We often say...as long as we clutter it up well enough, a LARGE enclosure is just fine. But is it ? Usually we have a warm and and a cool end. In order to find the exact temperature they want (or need) they are forced to choose. They are forced to travel just for thermo regulation. In the wild THEY will pick their spot. It isn't chosen for them based on which side of their habitat is cooler or warmer. They don't have to venture out and travel over all kinds of "enrichment" (exposing themselves to danger and being eaten) just to find a cooler or warmer spot. Simply moving deeper or lower within their hiding spot usually gives them the gradient they need.

Therefor, "enrichment" can be many things. And it can be vastly DIFFERENT things for different species. What one species needs and craves , another might get stressed by.

However, we cannot "ask" our snakes what they prefer. We can watch their body language and what "they do". But how does one know the snake "cruises" back and forth because it loves the jungle gym and fun, or because it is stressed and unhappy ? Does the snake try to stretch to the edge of the tank because 1. It wants to hang out with the owner and have some fun 2. Its stressed and wants to find a safer place to live 3. The husbandry is incorrect and the snake tries to find better. Well, humans have their way to interpret things they way they would like them to be, so how is one to know?

When it comes to snakes, esp. Ball Pythons, we know they stress easy. We sort of know what stresses them. We know a stressed snake will not eat, breed and usually doesn't do well. They may survive, if not exactly thrive. It may be despite its circumstances. Not because of them.

We all know that even within a snake species, there are individuals. Some stress easier, others do not. Some are painfully shy, some aggressive, some seem calm and curious. So unless one has a great number of them, and has them for a long time, its hard to see the big picture on what seems to work best, across the board.

Just like with everything else, with time and exposure comes experience.

I was once a beginner, and even I thought that in some instances I had the better idea then some more experienced keepers. After all, experience isn't everything ? Little did I know, it may not be everything, but it is A LOT.

I was DEAD SET against racks and tubs. Spoke out against them. Like with so many things, one has to actually experience different situations, before having an informed opinion about them.

Many Ball Pythons do exceptionally well in rack set ups. They eat more readily, breed more readily, thrive. That in itself is a clue. You can accomplish all that in cages as well. But IMHO, and with Ball Pythons in particular, there really is a TO BIG. And the enrichment they need lies within the correct husbandry, and tight dark places.

I have a Display cage with a big Ball Python. Husbandry is spot on. It works. But "imho" the rack would work the same if not better, for this particular snake.

So ...Tub or cage, there is such a thing as to small, but there certainly is such a thing as to big.

my (very long) 2 cents..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

Keeping any animal in "to small of a space for its needs" is cruel.

Now...there ARE animals where the opposite is true. Keeping them in TO LARGE of a space for their needs is cruel.

We always have to remember NOT to project our own needs and necessities onto other species.

And about this whole "enrichment" thing.

What does "enrichment" mean ? Something that enriches my life. Things that make me happy enrich my life. Feeling safe enriches my life. Long hikes through nature enriches my life. The sky, sun, beautiful weather. Fun things to do, travel. Friends, family, kids, spouse.

Most humans need some of those and other things to have enrichment in their lives.

When it comes to animals, "enrichment" is the new "in vogue" thing. It is usually used in context with making the space they live in more "interesting", not so boring and blah.

But what about species that care nothing for a jungle gym? Does it "enrich" their lives ? What about a species that prefers small and dark places, does it enrich their lives to offer large spaces full of "stuff" to do ?

And then..if that animal is "all over that stuff" does it mean it needs that stuff? Wants that stuff? How do we know it isn't simply going around all that in its search for food ? Or stressed over it?

Going back to Ball Pythons, we know in the wild they spend a LARGE amount of time in tight, dark spaces. They even oftentimes just "lie in wait" for food to walk by. Once they have to poop or pee, they are forced to find another "small, dark space" because the smell would give them away, and no food would just "walk by".
They also travel when they are looking to breed. Some may seek out food, for sure, or travel short distances for other reasons like to find water. But by far and large, they spend their time "hiding".

We often say...as long as we clutter it up well enough, a LARGE enclosure is just fine. But is it ? Usually we have a warm and and a cool end. In order to find the exact temperature they want (or need) they are forced to choose. They are forced to travel just for thermo regulation. In the wild THEY will pick their spot. It isn't chosen for them based on which side of their habitat is cooler or warmer. They don't have to venture out and travel over all kinds of "enrichment" (exposing themselves to danger and being eaten) just to find a cooler or warmer spot. Simply moving deeper or lower within their hiding spot usually gives them the gradient they need.

Therefor, "enrichment" can be many things. And it can be vastly DIFFERENT things for different species. What one species needs and craves , another might get stressed by.

However, we cannot "ask" our snakes what they prefer. We can watch their body language and what "they do". But how does one know the snake "cruises" back and forth because it loves the jungle gym and fun, or because it is stressed and unhappy ? Does the snake try to stretch to the edge of the tank because 1. It wants to hang out with the owner and have some fun 2. Its stressed and wants to find a safer place to live 3. The husbandry is incorrect and the snake tries to find better. Well, humans have their way to interpret things they way they would like them to be, so how is one to know?

When it comes to snakes, esp. Ball Pythons, we know they stress easy. We sort of know what stresses them. We know a stressed snake will not eat, breed and usually doesn't do well. They may survive, if not exactly thrive. It may be despite its circumstances. Not because of them.

We all know that even within a snake species, there are individuals. Some stress easier, others do not. Some are painfully shy, some aggressive, some seem calm and curious. So unless one has a great number of them, and has them for a long time, its hard to see the big picture on what seems to work best, across the board.

Just like with everything else, with time and exposure comes experience.

I was once a beginner, and even I thought that in some instances I had the better idea then some more experienced keepers. After all, experience isn't everything ? Little did I know, it may not be everything, but it is A LOT.

I was DEAD SET against racks and tubs. Spoke out against them. Like with so many things, one has to actually experience different situations, before having an informed opinion about them.

Many Ball Pythons do exceptionally well in rack set ups. They eat more readily, breed more readily, thrive. That in itself is a clue. You can accomplish all that in cages as well. But IMHO, and with Ball Pythons in particular, there really is a TO BIG. And the enrichment they need lies within the correct husbandry, and tight dark places.

I have a Display cage with a big Ball Python. Husbandry is spot on. It works. But "imho" the rack would work the same if not better, for this particular snake.

So ...Tub or cage, there is such a thing as to small, but there certainly is such a thing as to big.

my (very long) 2 cents..

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Always so well spoken zina!!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

Keeping any animal in "to small of a space for its needs" is cruel.

Now...there ARE animals where the opposite is true. Keeping them in TO LARGE of a space for their needs is cruel.

We always have to remember NOT to project our own needs and necessities onto other species.

And about this whole "enrichment" thing.

What does "enrichment" mean ? Something that enriches my life. Things that make me happy enrich my life. Feeling safe enriches my life. Long hikes through nature enriches my life. The sky, sun, beautiful weather. Fun things to do, travel. Friends, family, kids, spouse.

Most humans need some of those and other things to have enrichment in their lives.

When it comes to animals, "enrichment" is the new "in vogue" thing. It is usually used in context with making the space they live in more "interesting", not so boring and blah.

But what about species that care nothing for a jungle gym? Does it "enrich" their lives ? What about a species that prefers small and dark places, does it enrich their lives to offer large spaces full of "stuff" to do ?

And then..if that animal is "all over that stuff" does it mean it needs that stuff? Wants that stuff? How do we know it isn't simply going around all that in its search for food ? Or stressed over it?

Going back to Ball Pythons, we know in the wild they spend a LARGE amount of time in tight, dark spaces. They even oftentimes just "lie in wait" for food to walk by. Once they have to poop or pee, they are forced to find another "small, dark space" because the smell would give them away, and no food would just "walk by".
They also travel when they are looking to breed. Some may seek out food, for sure, or travel short distances for other reasons like to find water. But by far and large, they spend their time "hiding".

We often say...as long as we clutter it up well enough, a LARGE enclosure is just fine. But is it ? Usually we have a warm and and a cool end. In order to find the exact temperature they want (or need) they are forced to choose. They are forced to travel just for thermo regulation. In the wild THEY will pick their spot. It isn't chosen for them based on which side of their habitat is cooler or warmer. They don't have to venture out and travel over all kinds of "enrichment" (exposing themselves to danger and being eaten) just to find a cooler or warmer spot. Simply moving deeper or lower within their hiding spot usually gives them the gradient they need.

Therefor, "enrichment" can be many things. And it can be vastly DIFFERENT things for different species. What one species needs and craves , another might get stressed by.

However, we cannot "ask" our snakes what they prefer. We can watch their body language and what "they do". But how does one know the snake "cruises" back and forth because it loves the jungle gym and fun, or because it is stressed and unhappy ? Does the snake try to stretch to the edge of the tank because 1. It wants to hang out with the owner and have some fun 2. Its stressed and wants to find a safer place to live 3. The husbandry is incorrect and the snake tries to find better. Well, humans have their way to interpret things they way they would like them to be, so how is one to know?

When it comes to snakes, esp. Ball Pythons, we know they stress easy. We sort of know what stresses them. We know a stressed snake will not eat, breed and usually doesn't do well. They may survive, if not exactly thrive. It may be despite its circumstances. Not because of them.

We all know that even within a snake species, there are individuals. Some stress easier, others do not. Some are painfully shy, some aggressive, some seem calm and curious. So unless one has a great number of them, and has them for a long time, its hard to see the big picture on what seems to work best, across the board.

Just like with everything else, with time and exposure comes experience.

I was once a beginner, and even I thought that in some instances I had the better idea then some more experienced keepers. After all, experience isn't everything ? Little did I know, it may not be everything, but it is A LOT.

I was DEAD SET against racks and tubs. Spoke out against them. Like with so many things, one has to actually experience different situations, before having an informed opinion about them.

Many Ball Pythons do exceptionally well in rack set ups. They eat more readily, breed more readily, thrive. That in itself is a clue. You can accomplish all that in cages as well. But IMHO, and with Ball Pythons in particular, there really is a TO BIG. And the enrichment they need lies within the correct husbandry, and tight dark places.

I have a Display cage with a big Ball Python. Husbandry is spot on. It works. But "imho" the rack would work the same if not better, for this particular snake.

So ...Tub or cage, there is such a thing as to small, but there certainly is such a thing as to big.

my (very long) 2 cents..

---

Thank you very much for this great comment.
I've followed this thread since it was posted but I didn't intend to voice my opinion on this topic because I do see both pros and cons (but I am by no means an experienced owner; I have had mine for just about 4 months). But I think that you brought up some very great points. By the way I've actually seen my ball python (at night) just hanging out in his hide waiting for food. On other days he likes to climb (especially when the hide, that he was in, is dirty).
In my country rack systems are sort of forbidden and are considered animal cruelty (but I only know of one case that actually went to court). There was actually a breeder couple that was sued because of the rack systems they used for their ball pythons. He and his wife claimed that they have bred ball python for over 20 years and have kept them in rack systems for over 17 years. They said they have bred better and have eaten better since they've lived in rack systems.
The court then ordered a few veterinaries to take a look at the rack system. This is a translated quote from the head of the department for consumer protection and animal health. He was asked to sum up the result from the veterinaries research:

"In the veterinaries' opinion keeping ball pythons in rack systems for their whole life is against (our laws of) animal protection. For the snake living in a rack system for it's whole life means being kept in a tub without being able to move and to behave according to it's instincts. Behaviours like hunting, movement or searching for a partner are impossible."

The court asked the couple to dissolve their collection but the couple ended up moving to the Netherlands because rack systems are not against the law in the Netherlands.
I believe that are certainly cases in which rack systems are way too small and/or not taken care of properly. But in a terrarium the ball python can't go hunting or search for a partner as well.
In the end I always wonder who to trust more. A person who has kept the snakes for over 20 years and has a lot of practical experience or the veterinaries who have studied these animals for over 20 years as well but only have the knowledge of these animals from their research about their natural ways and their health. There might be some truth to both? I don't know because I have neither the experience nor that kind of detailed knowledge but I am eager to learn more about it.
I prefer a terrarium for my python because my little ball python does better in the terrarium than in the rack system I used for his quarantine (but I don't know if I might have done a mistake when I had him in the quarantine box). Anyway, thank your for the great comment on that topic. I feel like I've learned a bit more about the pros. In the end it only matters which one of these is better for the animal.

Enrichment is perhaps more for the keeper than the snake.

I added a back wall of foam faux rock ledges in the Trans-pecos tank. I also have a peculiar knotted and gnarled old stump in there. I like the way the display looks, and it's interesting to watch him slither around, but I have to pick him up, and place him on the top ledge for that. Otherwise, he stays on the ground.

He is my most beautiful animal, and also moves with the most hypnotic grace, but this tall narrow tank may not be suited to him.

Zina's post (#41) is amazing. :love: Are you single Zina?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Godzilla78

Zina's post (#41) is amazing. :love: Are you single Zina?

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:dance: her post are always on point lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by distaff

Enrichment is perhaps more for the keeper than the snake.

I added a back wall of foam faux rock ledges in the Trans-pecos tank. I also have a peculiar knotted and gnarled old stump in there. I like the way the display looks, and it's interesting to watch him slither around, but I have to pick him up, and place him on the top ledge for that. Otherwise, he stays on the ground.

He is my most beautiful animal, and also moves with the most hypnotic grace, but this tall narrow tank may not be suited to him.

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How far off the back of the terrarium do the ledges extend? I made one for my baird's rat snake and it extends about 8-10 inches out at one point and about 4-5 at another and she's on it all the time.

I wish I could see the picture so I knew what you were talking about specifically but going off the other replies I'm gonna say I have a decent grasp of what's happening.

Here's the deal, ridiculously small tubs for anything but neonate snakes should be frowned upon for obvious reasons. I saw someone reference keeping an adult snake in 15qt tubs. That's around 13x8x5 inches, if someone claims to have been doing it for years then what they've been doing is abusing animals for years. Sorry, I can't even fit my foot in that cage and if someone is keeping their's in that size of a tub they don't need to be telling anyone how to take care of their snakes because they aren't doing a good job I don't think anyone here would argue against that and I know a lot of tub keepers on this forum.

Finally onto the debate any conversation like this devolves into:

Now are tubs themselves bad? No, in my opinion they aren't. And I keep my snakes in large naturalistic terrariums.

I've seen some pretty tremendous ball python setups in tanks or plastic terrariums, it honestly makes me wonder why they are so popular and whether they bothered to research their animal at all. What is the number one thing we know about ball pythons? They do nothing. So to put all of that effort into nice naturalistic enclosures, at least for this species seems like a bit of a waste of time although there are tricks a keeper can use in order to encourage even a ball python to come out and about more so I'm not trying to insult anyone who's doing that with their ball pythons but it's frustrating for me with my enclosures and I'm keeping much more active North American colubrids so I can't imagine how a BP keeper must feel.

Overall the tanks vs PVC/wood terrariums vs tubs debate is stupid. The only thing you should ask yourself is do you want a sterile setup or not. Sterile means simple substrate, simple decor, simple water, if you do keep your snakes in a tub. It's stupid to keep an aquarium or terrarium out in the open with nothing but newspaper as a substrate, two hides and a waterbowl.

If you want nice decor and something to look at then get a tank or pvc terrarium or build one.

BOOM, I just ended the whole debate, there is nothing intrinsically better for a snake in any of the three described boxes just a few things are easier in some.

Just because I've seen it mentioned before, anyone who claims that their snake started eating better after being moved to a tub probably had their snakes in simple tank setups that did not appropriately address the biggest need a snake has which is security. Had they simply blocked off 3 sides with some dark opaque paper I wouldn't be surprised if they would have had the same result they did as when they put it in a tub because an enclosure with 4 see through sides is going to need more than 2 hides and some newspaper or an inch of aspen in order to address a snakes need for security.

Tubs and certain terrariums only hold heat better because of reduced airflow, not because of any actual difference in what they are made of especially at the thicknesses we use for enclosures.

How important is proper airflow? Well I know that snakes don't need as much air as mammals but having constant fresh air can't possibly be a bad thing as long as all other factors are maintained.

Tub keeping is easy mode, do snakes need nice enclosures? No. But do they need enough room to at least move around a bit? Yes, absolutely 1000000%. Tank keeping takes a bit of extra effort, if you wanna put in the effort to do it right then do it.


Anyone telling someone they are keeping a snake incorrectly purely based on the style of cage alone is an idiot.

Go to Africa, I guarantee you every ball python you find is crammed up in a small space/hole and only come out to eat. Even in rack systems, during the day the snakes are usually not roaming at all and at night their only roaming for food. There's a reason they eat, poop, breed, and seem to be virtually stress free in a tub versus a tank or display cage! I've even seen snakes go off food and once put into a smaller tub go back to feeding. Tubs are better for ball pythons versus cages/tanks, not an opinion it's a fact!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jhill001

I wish I could see the picture so I knew what you were talking about specifically but going off the other replies I'm gonna say I have a decent grasp of what's happening.

Here's the deal, ridiculously small tubs for anything but neonate snakes should be frowned upon for obvious reasons. I saw someone reference keeping an adult snake in 15qt tubs. That's around 13x8x5 inches, if someone claims to have been doing it for years then what they've been doing is abusing animals for years. Sorry, I can't even fit my foot in that cage and if someone is keeping their's in that size of a tub they don't need to be telling anyone how to take care of their snakes because they aren't doing a good job I don't think anyone here would argue against that and I know a lot of tub keepers on this forum.

Finally onto the debate any conversation like this devolves into:

Now are tubs themselves bad? No, in my opinion they aren't. And I keep my snakes in large naturalistic terrariums.

I've seen some pretty tremendous ball python setups in tanks or plastic terrariums, it honestly makes me wonder why they are so popular and whether they bothered to research their animal at all. What is the number one thing we know about ball pythons? They do nothing. So to put all of that effort into nice naturalistic enclosures, at least for this species seems like a bit of a waste of time although there are tricks a keeper can use in order to encourage even a ball python to come out and about more so I'm not trying to insult anyone who's doing that with their ball pythons but it's frustrating for me with my enclosures and I'm keeping much more active North American colubrids so I can't imagine how a BP keeper must feel.

Overall the tanks vs PVC/wood terrariums vs tubs debate is stupid. The only thing you should ask yourself is do you want a sterile setup or not. Sterile means simple substrate, simple decor, simple water, if you do keep your snakes in a tub. It's stupid to keep an aquarium or terrarium out in the open with nothing but newspaper as a substrate, two hides and a waterbowl.

If you want nice decor and something to look at then get a tank or pvc terrarium or build one.

BOOM, I just ended the whole debate, there is nothing intrinsically better for a snake in any of the three described boxes just a few things are easier in some.

Just because I've seen it mentioned before, anyone who claims that their snake started eating better after being moved to a tub probably had their snakes in simple tank setups that did not appropriately address the biggest need a snake has which is security. Had they simply blocked off 3 sides with some dark opaque paper I wouldn't be surprised if they would have had the same result they did as when they put it in a tub because an enclosure with 4 see through sides is going to need more than 2 hides and some newspaper or an inch of aspen in order to address a snakes need for security.

Tubs and certain terrariums only hold heat better because of reduced airflow, not because of any actual difference in what they are made of especially at the thicknesses we use for enclosures.

How important is proper airflow? Well I know that snakes don't need as much air as mammals but having constant fresh air can't possibly be a bad thing as long as all other factors are maintained.

Tub keeping is easy mode, do snakes need nice enclosures? No. But do they need enough room to at least move around a bit? Yes, absolutely 1000000%. Tank keeping takes a bit of extra effort, if you wanna put in the effort to do it right then do it.


Anyone telling someone they are keeping a snake incorrectly purely based on the style of cage alone is an idiot.

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You hit it right on the head.. [emoji106]

Sent from my galaxy s8 plus