Semi graphic bite photos.

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Originally Posted by Gio

By the way pit bulls are typically more difficult to protection train due to the fact that in their creation dogs that bit their handlers or others were culled or never used for breeding.

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This is incorrect. I'm actually a huge pit bull advocate. I've been involved in breed rescue and have lived with game bred pits.

If you actually read accounts of dogmen - going all the way back to the 1800s - there were plenty of dogs in breeding programs that were man biters. Big names in early 20th century pit bull breeding - Tudor, Jones, Carver, even Colby had dogs in their programs that bit. Colby's nephew was killed in a "yard incident" by his dogs way back in 1909.

No serious dog man lculled a champion fighter for biting. I'd be very very interested in seeing a verifiable account of it being a common practice. I do believe that there was natural pressure against human aggression - the dogs that focused on the other dogs became fighters - but no culling of good fighters.

30 years of Fighting Dogs by George Armitage (published in 1935) is a fascinating read if you're interested in history of the American Pit Bull terrier.

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It's not the breed of dog but irresponsible ownership that is the problem.

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Pit bulls need a different kind of responsible ownership than your average dog. So not only do you have the idiots who see pit bulls in rap videos and want a big tough dog for status - you get people who you would normally consider a responsible dog owner getting pits and then accidents happen. I was speaking with someone who competes heavily in OB. They where at a competition. A pit that was actually working on a higher title was leaving the ring and it attacked another dog unprovoked. It was brutal.

The problem was that the owner trained the OB with a high energy and tug reward for flashy performances the dog was pushed into prey drive. She didn't pick up on the signs of the impending attack - because in general pit bulls have far more subdued body language then other dog breeds thanks to their gladiator ancestory. Then she wasn't carrying a break stick so the attack was prolonged.

Then you get your average owner who believes it's just how you raise them and are completely ignorant of the genetic aggression and let their pits run amok in dog parks...

Pits are zero mistake dogs.

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ANY large dog can inflict significant damage.

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But not every large breed have been selectively bred for bite and hold death grips.

When pit bulls bite they tend to inflict far more damage than comparable sized dogs. Genetics.

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Do not use this topic to defame pit bulls, bull breeds or any other dog breed for that matter. That is the EXACT mentality anti-reptile fanatics use to wage war on our snakes and I don't want it here..

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This was not an attempt on me to defame pit bulls. As I said before I LOVE them. I want the breed preserved.

However, I do believe that the "it's just a dog" mentality and spreading the positive myths such as nanny dogs and that biters were culled - is just as damaging to the breed as a whole. It puts dogs in situations where the owners are ignorant of the dog's capabilities.

Pits are sweet, loving and goofy, but they are also Tenacious, powerful, high drive fighters with a lot of inherent aggression (mostly of the dog aggression variety). Considering the popularity of the dogs we are all lucky that most tend to be fairly high threshold dogs.

Breed matters. A lot.

No it is not incorrect.
A great many dogs were culled and it is documented. I was also referring to protection training in that portion of the thread. Unless you have trained, trialed and handled these dogs on the field you can't really comment. Their drives are quite different from traditional sporting breeds.

There are very few APBT/Amstaffs walking around with titles because of their typical good nature toward man. It is changing but the true game bred pit is not wha t you see today in the muscled bully breeds.

Jimmy Boots was written about by Richard F Stratton. Boots was considered very good with people and even with other animals and was raised as a family dog.

Louis B Colby and Diane Jessup also mention this in Colby's book. Some of the most "game" dogs lived the quiet, comfortable lives with other dogs and people.

It is a reality. More often than not the dogs were man friendly and many were even dog friendly.

Howard Heinzl was thrilled with the Colby line of dogs as they were all very stable.

Cammett's Flash was another wonderful family dog back in 1941. Family dog.

These are NOT myths it is documented as fact.

Colby's Demo would not bother another dog unless attacked. These and many more from the Colby line were well know for stability around people and often other animals.

Again,,,, where does this relate to my topic that I asked politely to stay away from bashing dogs or snakes?

You focus solely on pit bulls again. There are plenty of capable dogs. Tosa Inu, Presa Canario, Cane Corso, and many other bull breeds. NONE are any better or worse than the next.

I have a whole library of literature on the subject and filed experience. I don't have time to delve into it, nor should I be asked to do so as that was not the intention of this recently and drastically misguided post.

"Just another Dog" what does that even mean?

ALL animals require certain responsibilities.

There are a great many large and small dog breeds that have committed "crimes" against humans.

NOT THE TOPIC here.

ANY legislation against a breed, which is also proven not to work infringes on my rights and the rights of others.

Idiots will do what they do and I can't prevent that.

Responsible people should be able to own the dog they want.

The post has reached and end.

I posted 2 photos and tried to suppress the grossly exaggerated claims of reptile/snake bites being the end of the world.

That was all.

Dog threads are for a completely different part of the board.

NOT here.

I don't have time to go into my years of training experience.

Just not interested in that on a snake/reptile board.

Since we are talking about snake bites...

To get back on topic (if that's alright?), has anyone received a food bite?

Is it typical for the snake to coil and hang on for a while? Or is it more typical for them to bite, hold on for just a moment then let go?


Herp Derp

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

Since we are talking about snake bites...

To get back on topic (if that's alright?), has anyone received a food bite?

Is it typical for the snake to coil and hang on for a while? Or is it more typical for them to bite, hold on for just a moment then let go?


Herp Derp

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Bingo!

Thanks for bringing this to where it should be.

Post some various bite photos or mention your experiences with snake bites. Minor or serious.

It is really what I was getting at in the first place.

This other rubbish has detracted from the topic.

Thanks Here Derp for getting back on track.

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Originally Posted by Gio

No it is not incorrect.
A great many dogs were culled and it is documented.

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Can you please post a source of this documentation? I am legitimately interested.

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We tossed for corners and I won. When we went to weigh Rowdy, he acted like a wild animal. He wanted to eat anyone that came near him but his own owner and trainer, and even they could not get him weighed. They suggested weighing him after the battle, and of course I would not agree to his. A dog loses weight during a battle, and besides it wasn't hurting my cause any for Rowdy to be upset and acting like the Tasmanian Devil, so I let them wrestle with the problem of how to get him weighed. They finally decided to tie together one leg of a pair of overalls, and then put Rowdy head first into the other leg, and got him on the scales. He was under the required weight all right.We washed the dogs and after the washing each man agreed to turn his own dog loose, - I didn't want to have to hold that man-eater.

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- From 30 years with fighting dogs by George Armitage

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[/COLOR]He would then laugh like and angel flying too close to the ground, he would speak up and say, it was the English dogs Don, you can hear these know it alls talk about the Irish dogs and they were good ones, but the English dogs was where it was at. Red eyed dogs as red as a ruby. Wild to go very hot dogs that would eat up a person, and Flo would speak up and say “Lord yes,” as she pulled up her long cotton dress to her knees and pulled her knee socks down to her ankles to show her scars from dog bites.

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- From an interview with Earl Tudor by Don Mayfield back in 1982. Full story found here: http://www.gamedogshistory.com/earl-tudor-the-oklahoma-kid/

There's a few BIG names in pit bull history. No culling of biters. [/FONT]

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These and many more from the Colby line were well know for stability around people and often other animals.

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NEWBURYPORT, Feb 2, 1909 -- Bert, the 2-year-old son of Mr and Mrs Walter Leadbetter of Lynn, was killed this afternoon by a fighting bull terrier, owned by his uncle, John P. Colby, at 36 Franklin st.

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http://www.dogsbite.org/img/space.gifMrs Leadbetter and her son had come here to visit her brother, who is a dog fancier. The little fellow wandered into the yard where the kennels are.
http://www.dogsbite.org/img/space.gifThe dog sprang at the child's neck and growling ferociously shook him like a rag. Then the savage animal, dropping its prey, snapped at other portions of the body, inflicting a number of wounds.
http://www.dogsbite.org/img/space.gifMr Colby ran out, drove the dog a

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From the Boston Daily Globe Febuary 3rd 1909

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Again,,,, where does this relate to my topic that I asked politely to stay away from bashing dogs or snakes?

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I am in no way bashing pit bulls. Just refuting something commonly touted as "fact" that isn't true based on historical accounts of breed history.

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You focus solely on pit bulls again. There are plenty of capable dogs. Tosa Inu, Presa Canario, Cane Corso, and many other bull breeds. NONE are any better or worse than the next.

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I focused on Pit Bulls simply because of mis information on that breed being spread on this thread. I actually mention the Fila myself in a post further up.

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"Just another Dog" what does that even mean?

ALL animals require certain responsibilities.

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Some breeds require a higher level of responsibility than others. Pit Bulls, Presas, Tosas, Filas, Ovcharkas, Dogos, and other bull/molosser/guardian breeds are zero mistake dogs and should NOT be owned by your typical pet dog owner.

How many breeds out there do owners need to carry a break stick for?

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There are a great many large and small dog breeds that have committed "crimes" against humans.

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Yes, but fatal maulings tend to come from just a handful of breeds

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ANY legislation against a breed, which is also proven not to work infringes on my rights and the rights of others.

Idiots will do what they do and I can't prevent that.

Responsible people should be able to own the dog they want.

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I am against BSL for the same reasons.

However, with Pit Bulls, a breed I champion and love there is a LOT of propaganda out there. Anti pit bull people tout them as evil, soul less, killing machines. Pro pit bull advocate that they are just like any old dog! It all matters how you raise them, that they were nanny dogs! That human aggressive pits were typically and consistently culled from the breeding programs.

Like most things in life, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

The pro pit bull propaganda is just as dangerous to the breed. People who are not capable of handling the responsibility of owning a genetically aggressive, powerful high prey/fight and incredibly driven breed buy into it and end up with a dog that kills another pet or even a child.

Semi true...... Human aggression is/was not allowed in the ring/pit. The dogs that attacked anything other than the other fighter did have a chance to die.
I have had some major lines and I am still mad about the girl I lost to cancer, this also caused me to miss out on some Remy pipetts
My Carver girl has a high game drive, sometimes too high. She is also the smallest weighing in at 35 pounds.
Too many people don't realize that you have to and should work these dogs.
A tired bully is a great bully. ;)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...pska7fcp7z.jpg

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

(Sorry, couldn't edit my last post more)

Even if you don't think it makes sense, I think you are missing the whole point of the OP's first post here. We're all on the boat that the baby boa's bite is harmless and the dog's prey/play bite can do a lot of damage, but the point is that the general public would rather consider the baby boa to be the more dangerous and high-risk one. The topic is of the general person's misconception about snakes, even small ones.

Check out this link of the human society's list of "constrictor snake attacks". Anyone who knows a thing or two about snakes can see that probably 30% of them are bogus and made-up tales or incompetent owners, and another percentage are just harmless. http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/...ke-attacks.pdf

"December 2, 2002/Marina, California: A female student was bitten on the finger by a 3-foot boa constrictor kept in the middle school classroom.54"

They literally list this as a constrictor ATTACK... Why not list the thousands of hamsters and rats who have bitten people on the finger then too? LOL


ETA: I posted the same things in my first post in this thread, woops.

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Its not I don't agree that average pet snakes are harmless. I just feel the comparison to be illogical.

Sent from my C6743 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

Is it typical for the snake to coil and hang on for a while? Or is it more typical for them to bite, hold on for just a moment then let go?

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I've had both happen. Only time it was a full on grab and coil was with my largest boa and was a SFE, two hands, one holding cage door slightly open, other had f/t rat on tongs, the door slipped out of my hand, she saw the movement and went for that hand instead of the rat.

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Originally Posted by Gio

Post some various bite photos or mention your experiences with snake bites. Minor or serious.

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After this thread: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-feeding-posts
I decided to agree with them and no longer post my snake bite photos.

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Originally Posted by voodoolamb

Can you please post a source of this documentation? I am legitimately interested.


- From 30 years with fighting dogs by George Armitage


- From an interview with Earl Tudor by Don Mayfield back in 1982. Full story found here: [/FONT][/COLOR]http://www.gamedogshistory.com/earl-tudor-the-oklahoma-kid/

There's a few BIG names in pit bull history. No culling of biters. [/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]
[/COLOR]From the Boston Daily Globe Febuary 3rd 1909



I am in no way bashing pit bulls. Just refuting something commonly touted as "fact" that isn't true based on historical accounts of breed history.


I focused on Pit Bulls simply because of mis information on that breed being spread on this thread. I actually mention the Fila myself in a post further up.




Some breeds require a higher level of responsibility than others. Pit Bulls, Presas, Tosas, Filas, Ovcharkas, Dogos, and other bull/molosser/guardian breeds are zero mistake dogs and should NOT be owned by your typical pet dog owner.

How many breeds out there do owners need to carry a break stick for?



Yes, but fatal maulings tend to come from just a handful of breeds



I am against BSL for the same reasons.

However, with Pit Bulls, a breed I champion and love there is a LOT of propaganda out there. Anti pit bull people tout them as evil, soul less, killing machines. Pro pit bull advocate that they are just like any old dog! It all matters how you raise them, that they were nanny dogs! That human aggressive pits were typically and consistently culled from the breeding programs.

Like most things in life, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

The pro pit bull propaganda is just as dangerous to the breed. People who are not capable of handling the responsibility of owning a genetically aggressive, powerful high prey/fight and incredibly driven breed buy into it and end up with a dog that kills another pet or even a child.

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Simply annoying and off topic. Though a semi recovery from early.

I didn't say ALL were culled but it is not misinformation that it occurred.

You have completely taken this whole post off the original topic.

Richard Stratton has written about it, Colby has written about it. Dieter Fleig (The world of Fighting Dogs) covers background and history.

The fact that I have personally competed with them is legit grounds for the statement as they are not readily programmed to bite humans like most sources say.

Have you titled a dog in French Ring, Mondio Ring, PSA or anything protection relate? Have you worked with dogs in law enforcement?

I never said any old bloke should own one. I did however say legislation was ineffective and really a violation of rights.

Your first post on this said you wished you hand't supported the breed, at least that's what I got from it.

I have a wonderful pit rescue that my kids are in love with. I never strayed from responsible ownership.

Again, I ask that you stay with the topic I originally brought up.

I already mentioned Colby dogs said to be family and dog friendly earlier. The information was from Colby's book.


Micki,,
It is not a direct comparison. READ the original thread before you comment.

It is all mentioned in there.

You are missing the entire point. Otherwise,, you go!!

Done here.

Total train wreck.

The point is that cuddly animals the average public is ok with have equally or more painful/dangerous bites than your typical and highly misunderstood snake.


Herp Derp