How to feel about the ethics of the spider wobble?

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Originally Posted by MarkS

the wobble is part of the mutation, it can not be selectively bred out.... I suspect that the reason we don't see more of the extreme examples of the wobble is because many of the worst ones are culled.

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Mark is 100% on the money. This community has been breeding Spiders for many many generations, and the wobble is still around. If in fact the worst of the train wrecks are going in the freezer, or at least being kept as pets only, and I believe this to be true, the wobble would eventually die off. The fact that Spiders still wobble is conclusive evidence that the condition is attached to the gene.

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Originally Posted by Slim

Mark is 100% on the money. This community has been breeding Spiders for many many generations, and the wobble is still around. If in fact the worst of the train wrecks are going in the freezer, or at least being kept as pets only, and I believe this to be true, the wobble would eventually die off. The fact that Spiders still wobble is conclusive evidence that the condition is attached to the gene.

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If loads of these ' defective ' hatchlings are being disposed of .... it makes the practice of breeding them even more abhorrent tbh !

I've easily produced over a hundred spider babies over the years and I've never had to cull a baby spider and I've never had one corkscrew. Some wobble for sure but they always found a home.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

If loads of these ' defective ' hatchlings are being disposed of .... it makes the practice of breeding them even more abhorrent tbh !

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We'll never know, or even be able to reasonably guess how many are culled each season. Let's not forget that the vast majority of the Ball Python world isn't on this forum, so a poll of breeders here would do us no good.

As for culling of defects being abhorrent, I respect your opinion, even though I may not agree with it.

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Originally Posted by DennisM

No, the wobble (not to be confused with writhing and corkscrewing which maybe effects 1% of spiders) is a sign of a neurological issue resulting in a less than perfect equilibrium. Spiders have been around for quite awhile now and there is no evidence that I'm aware of that indicates that their quality of life is any less than the typical captive BP in an overwhelming majority of cases. The choice to own one is of course up to each person; there are countless morphs to chose from and you can't keep them all.

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And how did you come up with that percentage?

I'll agree that most spiders probably only show minor signs of wobble. But then again, we aren't going to hear about the bad ones in an overwhelming majority of cases (to borrow your words).

Also, wobble can definitely get worse with age. The signs may not appear at all until the snake is older. Just because a spider isn't corkscrewing NOW doesn't mean that it never will.

Here's an example (from a different forum):

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My spider was 8 months when I got him and barely showed signs of a wobble, also struck and hit dead on, and never shivered or "shook". He just turned two, he went through an upside down phase and now he shakes almost constantly unless he is out with me or pearl, if I put him down he starts shaking and hits himself off things. Feeding has become a nightmare he pretty much vibrates its so bad, he misses 95% of the time unless he gets it stomach, if he misses he won't eat again and just hides. I love him to death and it kills me to see how bad it has gotten, to be completely honest I hate when people say it doesn't affect the quality of life cause when I look at him I can't help but think what's going on in his head, eating scares him, being out just on his own freaks him out, I can't just take him out and let him go like the others cause he either hides or tries so adventure and gets hurt.

All I can say is be prepared.

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Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

If loads of these ' defective ' hatchlings are being disposed of .... it makes the practice of breeding them even more abhorrent tbh !

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To be honest, I've culled more normals with birth defects or deformities then I have any morph. These kinds of defects can happen when breeding ANY animal. There is nothing 'abhorrent' about euthanizing any animal that is dying or is destined to have a poor quality of life. If you can't handle these kind of issues as they arise, then breeding animals is probably not for you.

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Originally Posted by Slim

Mark is 100% on the money. This community has been breeding Spiders for many many generations, and the wobble is still around. If in fact the worst of the train wrecks are going in the freezer, or at least being kept as pets only, and I believe this to be true, the wobble would eventually die off. The fact that Spiders still wobble is conclusive evidence that the condition is attached to the gene.

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World of Ball Pythons says 1999 for the first spider. So the gene has been in captivity for approximately 18 years. With roughly 2 years between hatching and first breeding, there have been less than 10 generations of captive breeding. For what it's worth, my definition of "many many" is at least 30 generations. And with a ball python's long life span, there is a chance that some of the first generation spiders are still in the breeding population. While removing the train wrecks from the breeding population helps, constant outbreeding of spiders to unrelated normals does nothing to select against wobbling. My $0.02.

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Originally Posted by Slim

We'll never know, or even be able to reasonably guess how many are culled each season. Let's not forget that the vast majority of the Ball Python world isn't on this forum, so a poll of breeders here would do us no good.

As for culling of defects being abhorrent, I respect your opinion, even though I may not agree with it.

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Interesting .

Well thankfully I don't breed snakes , just collect and keep them .

Breeding them has never appealed to me in the slightest , we're all different I guess as many seem to live for the breeding part of snake keeping ..

Great thread and posts!

I can't speak for the experience of others, but I'll share my experiences. I've produced 50+ spider and spider combos over the years. None of my breeders have major neurological issues. I have never had to cull a spider or spider combo hatchling I produced. None of the offspring I've produced had feeding problems, extreme neurological or corkscrewing issues including my own holdbacks and sold subadults/adults I see months-years later. That being said, I'm also not handling every spider/spider combo on a daily basis for extended periods of time. Although I do handle them, friends handle them and some are used for educational purposes- I try my very best to keep their stress levels at a minimum. I also incubate most of my ball python eggs at a lower temperature than most others, anywhere from 84-87F. I don't know if it helps or I just got really lucky. But I do know that the nervous system, particularly the central nervous system is highly sensitive to heat- especially toward the latter stages of development (why temperature spikes in incubation can cause wobbling/head tilt/neuro issues).