Breeding Bee combos?

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Originally Posted by rafacacho

Plesser, bumblebee, queenbee and .....pastel?
Looks super clean, lots of blushing and great black contrast. Nice looking babies!! Congratz!!

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Yup pastel. I'm really pleased with how the pastel gene presented itself in this clutch, even in the single gene baby

I would consider keeping all of these beautiful babies... great job

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I know 3 breeders here in canada that have produced those morphs 2 years in a row and I traded my super cinnamon for a mojave spider and the guy I traded it to made abunch of pewter bees which look super nice

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Beautiful babies. Congrats!

I thought it would be interesting to add some information as to why neurological problems might be linked with Spider genes. You see, in other species, neurological problems can be linked to coloration as well. And what coloration is most often affected? White. Now, the link you posted said that Super Spiders are leus, which means that they too are white.
White is also lethal in other vertebrate species, or leads to abnormalities and defects. For a while problems with Leu Black Rat Snakes and bug-eyes was known as were issues with albino x albino Boa Constrictors. Enigma Leopard Geckos have neurological conditions along with their patterning.

The reason for the neurological effect in animals with lessened melanin is this:
Melanin is very important in helping animals in a variety of ways: it helps them regulate UV light from the sun, to thermoregulation, and in some species is linked with better immune system functions (such as in wild populations of big cats).
Melanin helps to protect animal's eyes from bright light and to help reflect the sun light away from the eye.
Melanin helps to absorb the warmth of the sun and so can assist in thermoregulation.

In Vertebrates, melanin is synthesized from the amino-acid tyrosine in vesicular organelles (melanosomes) of neural-crest derived cells called melanophores (or melanocytes). These interact with the endocrine, immune and nervous system.
For this reason, melanin is linked with many of the highly important functions of the brain and body and without its production or when its production is altered it can lead to more then a simple change in skin, fur, feather, scale, or eye color. It can also lead to changes in behavior and health.

For example, without melanin in the skin, thermoregulation, UV filtering and cancer protection is cut down, which can lead to issues in creatures that spend time in the sunlight. Wild animals also are prone to predation, but as pets this is not a problem.
Without melanin in the eyes then the retinofugal optic fibers are misrouted and can lead to crossed eyes (as seen in Siamese cats). Any bright lighting leads to sensitivity and pain and visual acuity is decreased due to light scattering with-in the eye. Sight is also reduced due to foveal hypoplasia and possible light-induced retinal damage.
Nystagmus (irregular rapid movement of the eye) can be seen in albinos, Amblyopia (trouble seeing because of poor transmission to the brain), and optic nerve hypoplasia (underdevelopment of the optic nerve).

Melanocytes are found in the central nervous system, including areas of the brain responisble for mood and responses to stress. Albino or white animals often have behaviors changes with coloration changes. Small amounts of white are linked to calmer, tamer species (which is why many animals selected for tame behavior will often developed piebalding with-in only a few generations). However, large amounts of white (as soon in some pinto horses and dalmatian dogs) is linked with stress, nervousness and aggression.
Melanocytes are found in the inner ear and impaired migration of these melanocyes can lead to deafness in many white animals in one or both ears (to varying degrees). Blue-eyed White Cats, white-faced ferrets (silvers, black-eyed whites, pandas, ect), many pied dogs (including dalmations) all have a risk of being born deaf.
There is also a risk of abnormalities in the skull and body shape its self, as seen in wardy ferrets (those suffering from waardenburgs syndrome). Wardy ferrets often have issues with sight, hearing, balance and coordination, and may even be mentally retarded.
Some forms of white can also be lethal (known as Lethal White). While it isn't technically deadly, when two merle dogs are bred together their puppies are often blind and deaf and many breeders will put them down at birth. This is called Double Merle.
Lethal White foals will usually die soon after birth and are produced in Pinto horses when a foal has too much white on them.
Lethal forms of spotting are seen in Gerbils, Mice, Rats, Dwarf Hamsters, and Syrian Hamsters and if two copies of said gene are put together then the babies are likely to die or be born without eyes.

Now, don't get me wrong, I love white animals and all the color variations. Its awesome. I've just been doing a lot of research on which color varieties are linked with health problems and which aren't, so I can select an animal that I know will live without complications. I tried to avoid wardy ferrets, but because the breeders and sellers don't tell you the truth I ended up with two. Both were far more susceptible to cancer and we had both for under a year before loosing them. The two that didn't have wardys were far healthier and didn't show signs of cancer, malformed skull, coordination and muscle problems, ect.

I hope this helps explain some things. :)

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Originally Posted by GitaBooks

And what coloration is most often affected? White.

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This is vey interesting information, but the wobble is present in all Spider morphs. Even basic Spider Ball Pythons, some of which have very little white at all.

Yea my friends has like no white what's soo ever on his spider and on mine it's half way up lol

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I don't think the issue with the spider gene has correlation to the white color and it's not leucistic. In fact I believe the only issue that regularly occurs in all white ball pythons is the occasional bug eyes in super lessers. The white spider babies are under developed and color is the last thing to come in so it would make sense that a baby that died in the egg was all white. Even if it were to hatch out alive and white we don't know enough to claim that is what the super form looks like. I think there was only one case of the white snake being alive at hatching time. The others died in the egg

Spiders aren't white, but I have noticed that on each one the top of the head is lighter then on a normal ball, like they have a cap of lighter coloration on their skull. Perhaps this lowered amount of melanin could be a reason for the neurological condition.

However, I could be wrong, I just thought I would mention it because waardenburg's shows similar features in the varying degree that the animals are affected (some only a little and some severely), that no matter what the affected "morph" cannot be bred out of the condition (since it is actually caused by the color and not just linked to it) and how it affects the coordination, balance, ect of the animal. We can't really know if it affects hearing like in other waardys because snakes don't have ears. :)

Thank you for responding, I want to learn all I can and every bit helps.

Just my opinion based on antidotal experience, but I don't think the neurological issues in the Spider morph are related to color. We have hundreds of lighter colored morphs that exhibit none of the wobble and dinginess found in the Spider lines.