The Live vs F/T debate

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I just love ALL living creatures ... as I've said before .... my heart sinks when I step on a snail in the dark .

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Your idea of loving all living creatures must be different than mine and others, I love all living creatures too, while I love and respect them I also understand the circle of life, there are preys and their are predators there are also animals with little to no predators that must be managed and because you don't see that does not make you better or should allow you to judge other that see differently.

Whether you like it or not or take a part in the killing or not, animals die every day for YOUR needs and mine whether it's food, leather clothing or accessories, or even research.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I just love ALL living creatures ... as I've said before .... my heart sinks when I step on a snail in the dark .

I'm certainly not trolling ....

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You can love all living creatures and still feed live. Heck, I fed live while I was vegan because my snake would have starved otherwise. People are going to be angry when you insinuate that they must not love animals because they do choose or have to feed live, especially since you're speaking from a place of zero experience with it.

i did not state before, but i would never think any more/less of someone who chooses to feed f/t to their snakes

i just prefer live feeding, so i'm going to continue to do that


the key point in all this (at least to me) is that the snakes are getting the food they need to be healthy

We feed ours nothing but live I don't think I'd be comfortable feeding frozen/thawed lol

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I rather think that the slowly dying rat pup crying like a baby for 25 minutes easily disproves that train of thought ....

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This never happened.

I am forty years old, I have been a keeper since I was six. I have kept hot snakes, constrictors and colubrids. I have fed many hundreds of mice alive and many thousands more f/t. I can say with certainty that no constricting snake ever took 25 minutes to do in a rat pup once a coil was thrown. 25 seconds maybe. Truth be told, there is sometimes a squeek, sometimes a drop of blood on the nose. Cardiac arrest occurs quickly and the mouse dies.

I prefer f/t since it is safer and way more convenient, but if a snake won't change over, then there is nothing wrong with live food. Fortunately, most of us have captive bread snakes, so the snakes will eat f/t. Wild born snakes can be really fussy. As human beings, we cannot tell a reptile evolved over millions of years what it will eat. We can and certainly should try to reduce suffering of the prey and protect our pets to whatever degree is possible, but we also cannot let a snake starve to death because we disagree with its preferences.


David

I don't think the debate over live vs F/T will ever end, however I will say that morally looking down on someone for feeding their snake the exact same food items killed in a different way is very foolish. Is a hunter eating pork from a wild hog they killed themselves any different from a family eating bacon bought from the supermarket? Two pigs lived, two pigs were killed, what difference does it make who killed them and when? This is the part where you could debate certain breeding practices among pigs being highly unethical, but for arguments sake we'll assume the farm raised pigs were raised free range or something like that. A feeder rat is a feeder rat and how it died before disappearing into your snake makes no difference. Whether it died by being constricted or in a gas chamber doesn't matter much to me, because the end result is the same (a humane death and a well fed snake).

As for the feeder hurting the snake; Saying those of us who feed live are putting our snakes at risk is like saying those that own burms in Florida are putting the environment at risk. Responsibility is everything. Horror stories of rats eating prized snakes come from owners that drop a rodent in with their snake and leave it, which goes against rule number one of live feeding. I just fed my 3 finicky juveniles today, and I followed the same practice I always do: Place feeder in tank, supervise until the snake strikes, get the tongs in there if the snake had a bad wrap. They almost always get a good wrap, but sometimes the feeder has enough wiggle room to bite or kick, which I am always there to prevent because the safety of my snakes comes first. If the snake refuses to eat after about 5 minutes, I take the feeder out and try again next week.

Now I'll wrap this up by saying that I have snakes that eat live only, snakes that won't touch anything besides F/T or F/K, and snakes that go either way. I raise my own feeders and even when I buy them from the stores I always insure that what goes into my snakes is fat, happy, and totally unaware that there is any danger to it until it's already much too late. I honestly do not care what anyone else chooses to feed their snakes, because I recognize that it is ultimately not my decision. I will say that I don't appreciate being morally looked down at from people that can only pretend they're any better, and that feeding live, when done properly, presents no danger.

I wonder if this writing came from someone we know?

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...b2ccc686a1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Reinz

I wonder if this writing came from someone we know?

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...b2ccc686a1.jpg

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it's a shame that ppl like that can (and do) vote. :(

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Your mate has just confirmed that he's come across many a scarred snake in the wild .. is he making things up as well ??

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If I speak at one constant volume...

...At one constant pitch...

...At one constant rhythm...

...Right into your ear...

...You still won't hear...

I only have corn snakes. I only feed frozen thawed. I'm also a vet tech so I'm more a 'save the small fuzzy creatures' type person. With all that aside, I am not against feeding live for a snake that is only going to take live. These things happen and I'd rather not have someone's pet starve to death. If people are careful, there are going to be very few accidents, but accidents can still occur. My sister-in-law used to work at a pet store and witnessed a rat kill a young ball python by tearing off a large chunk of its skull after it missed a strike. I have a rat snake that was fed live even after he went blind. The previous owner didn't leave the rats in with him for hours, but he still got injured a lot because he wasn't able to aim his strikes. I got him after he got bit in the roof of his mouth. He's 16 years old now and I'm fairly certain he's the snake equivalent of senile. Feeding live to him would not be responsible feeding. One simply needs to be aware of all the potential factors.