The Age Old Question

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

I would not say its ridiculous. Have you ever seen what a small to medium rat can do to a snake that grabs it by say the butt end and rat manages to spin around and bite? Its horrible. I have never had it happen to any of my snakes or monitors as I always pre kill my rats before feeding but I have heard and see pictures of the horror stories. Like I said, sure you might not see it for months or years but it only takes 1 time to change your mind. I personally would rather not even chance it and like I said, I pre kill for my reptiles safety. Again to each their own but go google rat bites on snakes and see for yourself or you can try it yourself. Grab a rat in your hand and squeeze it and see how big of bite it takes out of your hand. Not some little weanling or fuzzy but a small to large rat. I'm actually rather surprised you would advocate feeding live to begin with as 90% of the snakes owners I've talked to either feed F/T or pre killed because of the statement I've stated above.

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While your point is fully relevant AMD makes perfect sense, the rats that bite are the ones that are hungry and left unattended. I always (I don't mean go sound like a monster) watch my snake kill the rat. I usually feed f/t but sometimes they just won't take it. If the snake grabs the rat by the rear end, take something metal or solid and give the rat something to bite on while it's being suffocated. That sounds bad in text, but it really works. It's not my favorite way, but I'd rather have my snake eat and do so safely. Do not EVER leave a live rat that has it's eyes open unattended in a snake cage. EVER.

Saying feeding live is always dangerous is like saying using a UTH is always dangerous. Both of those things can cause problems, but the risk is minimized to almost zero when someone does it correctly. If you monitor the feeding it's difficult for a rodent to injure the snake and darn near impossible for the rodent to kill the snake. Snakes are built to eat live prey after all. I fully respect the decision to feed pre-killed or f/t (which can be fatal if done improperly too; search for what happens when someone doesn't thaw the rat all the way) but saying it's irresponsible and dangerous to feed live is inaccurate and unfair, especially when some snakes will only take live.

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Originally Posted by Sammiebob

If the snake grabs the rat by the rear end, take something metal or solid and give the rat something to bite on while it's being suffocated. That sounds bad in text, but it really works. It's not my favorite way, but I'd rather have my snake eat and do so safely. Do not EVER leave a live rat that has it's eyes open unattended in a snake cage. EVER.

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That's what I do too :)

Oh I agree Sammie, I watch all my snakes and my monitors eat even their pre killed as I don't want any surprises and for my snakes, I keep them all on aspen so I have to pick off pieces as they are eating(yes I know not the best idea but that's a different post). And yeah Ive seen people use pencils, chopsticks, little dowels and stuff to pin a rats head if the snake grabs wrong. And yes I agree 100% to never leave a rat in the cage. When i used to feed my bearded dragon crickets before i started my dubia colony, i used to have to hunt down usually the 1 loose cricket and if i couldn't find it i would have to leave veggies overnight for the cricket and put my bearded dragon up on her hammock to sleep to avoid the cricket from biting the dragon. My point really was why bother taking that chance with a live rat as i have yet to see a snake that eventually wont take a pre killed or f/t doing the zombie dance method. Its just a risk that can be avoided all together.

I disagree though that the only rats that bite are hungry or unattended. Just last week, i was feeding my little girl and she gets rat pups which i do feed live since they cant do damage. Well i dropped it in and scooted it over by her hide box and she came out like greased lightning and grabbed it. Well she grabbed it by the ass and wrapped it up. Luckily it was small and couldn't hurt but if it was a medium rat and her 1 coil was about 1/2 down from the neck, that rat could have bit her. I mean like i said, an old herp guy i was talking to told me this, "If you don't think a rat can do damage to a snake, grab a rat in your hand and squeeze it slowly and see what happens. That rat will bite the bejebus out of your thumb or index finger as it is fighting for its life"

I'm not trying to preach don't feed live rodents. I'm just trying to give a heads up to newer people or people unfamiliar with what a live rat that is fighting for its life can do. Anyways, I'm not here to derail this thread so this is the last i'll talk about this topic. Best of luck whichever way you decide to feed :)

Very true Virginia about snakes being equipped to kill live prey and you can see some of the battle scars some of the big Anacondas and pythons have on them to show for it. Thing is wild animals immune systems are much stronger than a captive bred animals as our "pets" aren't exposed to all the germs of the wild so some captive bred animal with a slight weaker immune system will do fine in captivity, in the wild that same animal might not do well. But that's kind of a different topic haha.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

I'm not trying to preach don't feed live rodents. I'm just trying to give a heads up to newer people or people unfamiliar with what a live rat that is fighting for its life can do. Anyways, I'm not here to derail this thread so this is the last i'll talk about this topic. Best of luck to whichever way you decide to feed :)

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Wish this had been posted before I replied :P. I agree with that sentiment. I didn't even realize the thread wasn't about this as I kind of came in on the second half of it!

Even the live hopper I gave to Marshall yesterday, that thing was aggressive!


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Lol i hate mice. They seem much more prone to biting than rats. I don't know how many times I've reached into critter keepers to fish out mice for euthanizing and gotten bit. And for little guys, their bite hurts. Rats are much more calm.

I feed outside of my enclourse in a small, clear tub.

I feed live and will hold/wedge the mouse by the tail. I use to set the mouse in by his tail and close the lid but I had a pack of seriously insane white mice and one of them wigged out when I put him in there. Ulfric landed his bite like a champ ofcourse, but oh the suspense... not the kind I like with my little buddy's well being on the line.

When he moves to full grown rat, I will raise live and sever the spinal cord via the neck and tail method before tossing him in for Ulfric.

The reason I first started was because I read of the worries of food aggresion. Honestly, I wouldn't be worried about even the meanest BP. If you don't smell like food you wont get bit.

I hate it when he messes his cage up anyways :) It's also a great time to clean his enclosure whilie hes in the tub. Too each their own, I don't think either method is bad. Everything has pros and cons.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

You are playing Russian roulette and one day your snake will lose and you will either have a dead snake or one hell of a vet bill.

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My reptile passion was handed down from my dad, we always fed live. My entire childhood observing snake feedings, always live. We're talking thousands of offerings - no dead snakes. Snakes would occasionally take a bite but any damage incurred was always superficial. I remember asking my dad, "what if the rat kills the snake" and him answering simply, "we'll keep the rat". Now I know he was joking and not worried about losing a snake. We sure went through a heap of rodents without ever finding that champion to keep as a pet.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

Again to each their own but go google rat bites on snakes and see for yourself or you can try it yourself.

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Those pictures you're looking at are not feeding time/retaliatory bites. They are damage caused by leaving a hungry rodent unattended with a snake for an extended period of time. Eventually the rodent is going to take a test nibble on the snake. If the snake recoils the rodent gains confidence and continues gnawing away. This is why responsible owners don't leave live rodents with their snakes unattended. It's not because the rodent is going you do all kinds of horrible damage to a snake that's in feeding mode - that's not the risk. The only time all this horrible damage is going to occur is when the snake is in defensive mode and you toss a hungry rodent in with them then walk away like an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

Grab a rat in your hand and squeeze it and see how big of bite it takes out of your hand.

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Punch yourself in the stomach. Now flex your abs and punch yourself in the stomach again. Get it?

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

I'm actually rather surprised you would advocate feeding live to begin with as 90% of the snakes owners I've talked to either feed F/T or pre killed because of the statement I've stated above.

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Names, or it didn't happen. Not about feeding f/t, but the reasons.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

They will get conditioned to whenever the cage is opened, they will go into feed mode. If it actually got that bad, then you don't need a snake because it means you are pretty much ignoring it.

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One could argue that a snake who's conditioned in this way is "happier" than the one you're constantly harassing. I'm not saying handling or taming snakes is a bad thing. I'm just saying it's absurd to state the opposite is a sign of a poor keeper. I have snakes I only handle during maintenance and I have snakes I handle a bit more often. I enjoy them all though - some through interaction but all through plain old observation.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

My point really was why bother taking that chance with a live rat as i have yet to see a snake that eventually wont take a pre killed or f/t doing the zombie dance method. Its just a risk that can be avoided all together.

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I'm thinking you just haven't seen that many snakes to make the above statement.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

I'm not trying to preach don't feed live rodents.

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Oh, but you are.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

Anyways, I'm not here to derail this thread

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Oh, but you have and I'm the sucker who couldn't resist commenting on a couple of your comments.

Some observations I've made over the years in regards to live feeding you may find useful. Some snakes will start feeding without dispatching their food first. This is typically seen during the consumption of helpless prey such as pinkies, fuzzies, chicks but not always. As soon as a snake takes any sort of damage while feeding, be it claw or tooth or beak, they typically go into kill mode. Depending on the species this usually equates to slamming the prey into the side of the enclosure a couple times to stun it before continuing or pinning/wrapping up for constriction. Now, what happens when an already wrapped snake starts taking damage? They immediately tighten/tense up(remember your stomach exercise?) and throw more coils. The tensing alone is usually enough to prevent any damage from getting beyond skin deep though.

my animals are fed in their enclosure I feed f/t and their bedding is cypress mulch . I have not seen any issues with them, and they have never tried to bite me. if you are concerned with the thawing of the rodents being too wet, put them in a plastic sandwich bag to keep them dry

Somebody posted that it is NOT just the hungry rats that bite. In my experience I have found that to be true on numerous occasions.

Sometimes my :snake: won't take the rat. Thus, I'm forced to cage it. I feed and water it well. I then offer the rat up again in a few days. Many times these well fed rats have offensively attacked my snake.
Needless to say I immediately grabbed the rat!

This is why I now feed by hand, while the rat is trying to bite me.:O

Which reminds me, I'm getting off here now to get on EBay to buy some long hemostats. The long tongs won't hold the rats.