Just a thought....................

I don't think they'll go up. There will always be people breeding their pastel male to normal female.

I'm not sure why there is so much offense being taken to the word useless. He is talking about the dollar value of the animal over the cost of keeping it alive. He is not talking about how you should just pick them up, throw them at the garbage can or let your cat play with it. Nobody is downplaying the value of life. We're on a website dedicated to these animals - we all signed up here because we agree they're all cool, including normal males. It's pretty obviously a discussion about return on investment. Chill out.

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Originally Posted by Misha

This has nothing to do with breeding projects. Read the post before you reply.

I'd love to produce cool morphs but I'm not going to use regular BPs I produce as feeders as someone on this thread suggested. And your "useless" normals are the ones that get people involved in this hobby. I think most people here started with a normal including myself.

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oh ok, maybe its a misunderstanding then. as i said earlier, all BPs deserve the same respect, no matter the monetary value or genetics.

people that hatch normals and have no use for them should still treat them with respect, get them well-started, and sell them. even if they dont make money doing it. you can see them as useless for your further breeding plans, and still treat them with respect. when you produce new life, taking good care of it is part of the responsibility. here i agree, a BP doesnt deserve less respect just because it didnt get the right chromosomes.

sure, most people start with a normal, then get into morphs, and some then start breeding. but thats just because the big chain pet stores have such a strong market influence, and they typically only ever buy the cheapest hatchlings and sell them overpriced, which means africa import normal hatchlings, or rejects from big breeders. its their business model, buy the cheapest stuff, sell it for as much as can be charged for it, and so another thing is part of the experience: they buy a normal for over a hundred dollars with mites from a big chain, then they do the research, and it turns out they can get the same without mites and in better condition for 20 dollars at a reptile show, and what they paid would have been enough to get a simple morph from a local breeder. thats not optimal at all.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

I don't think they'll go up. There will always be people breeding their pastel male to normal female.

I'm not sure why there is so much offense being taken to the word useless. He is talking about the dollar value of the animal over the cost of keeping it alive. He is not talking about how you should just pick them up, throw them at the garbage can or let your cat play with it. Nobody is downplaying the value of life. We're on a website dedicated to these animals - we all signed up here because we agree they're all cool, including normal males. It's pretty obviously a discussion about return on investment. Chill out.

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This is the explanation to the original statement I have been waiting on.
I will never breed a normal male to anything for any reason so no breading value, I sell them,
I have 15 breeder normal females, don't need anymore, sell them too.
Do I do back flips when I hatch normals out of a three gene female, nope.
Is every baby treated like gold, yes, because they have value to someone.
I understand the op's point just figured some might not.

I don't think normals will increase in monetary value. However, an outstanding clean, light normal is worth more to me personally than a browned out, dirty, busy pastel for example. And if two dirty pastels produced super pastels, I would still take that clean, light normal over it. A dirty super pastel (yes, they exist) is a horrible prospect for breeding.


One issue with normals is that many people do not selectively breed for them like how most breed for morphs. They just breed whatever normal of whatever quality to their other morphs.

Yes, normals vary a lot.
But certain normals can definitely improve the way a morph looks. For example, a blushed out, really light, really reduced pattern normal can enhance and improve a fire or a pastel.
Gale (Angellady) here has one of THE BEST normal females I have ever seen. And she uses that normal female to produce superb morph offspring that are much more attractive than the morph sire. The female has traits that do improve the looks and quality of the offspring.

I personally think if people used excellent examples of normals(including males) for breeding, we can improve the quality and looks of morphs.
However, most people just randomly breed whatever normal female they have around without really considering how it would compliment or worsen the morph they are breeding to.


My first few ball pythons were morphs before I finally bought a normal hatchling for future breeding. After a year of caring for her, I sold her. She was not a good example of a normal and did not have any special qualities I wanted to include into my breeding program. I want my line of animals to have superb blushing, vibrant coloration, and clean patterns, which she has none of these qualities.

So in regards to normals, there are definitely pet quality and breeding quality, like any other morph. However, most do overlook this just because they're normals.
So in terms of breeding stock, I do indeed find many normals "useless", unworthy of breeding, and to be pet quality at the best. But I do think that about a lot of morphs too.
Personally, it has nothing to do with what genetics the snake has, but quality.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I don't think normals will increase in monetary value. However, an outstanding clean, light normal is worth more to me personally than a browned out, dirty, busy pastel for example. And if two dirty pastels produced super pastels, I would still take that clean, light normal over it. A dirty super pastel (yes, they exist) is a horrible prospect for breeding.


One issue with normals is that many people do not selectively breed for them like how most breed for morphs. They just breed whatever normal of whatever quality to their other morphs.

Yes, normals vary a lot.
But certain normals can definitely improve the way a morph looks. For example, a blushed out, really light, really reduced pattern normal can enhance and improve a fire or a pastel.
Gale (Angellady) here has one of THE BEST normal females I have ever seen. And she uses that normal female to produce superb morph offspring that are much more attractive than the morph sire. The female has traits that do improve the looks and quality of the offspring.

I personally think if people used excellent examples of normals(including males) for breeding, we can improve the quality and looks of morphs.
However, most people just randomly breed whatever normal female they have around without really considering how it would compliment or worsen the morph they are breeding to.


My first few ball pythons were morphs before I finally bought a normal hatchling for future breeding. After a year of caring for her, I sold her. She was not a good example of a normal and did not have any special qualities I wanted to include into my breeding program. I want my line of animals to have superb blushing, vibrant coloration, and clean patterns, which she has none of these qualities.

So in regards to normals, there are definitely pet quality and breeding quality, like any other morph. However, most do overlook this.
So in terms of breeding stock, I do indeed find many normals "useless", unworthy of breeding, and to be pet quality at the best. But I do think that about a lot of morphs too.

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excellent post

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Originally Posted by MrLang

I don't think they'll go up. There will always be people breeding their pastel male to normal female.

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I don't see why people waste their time, personally. My first pairings going all be morphs, I was going to do a morph x normal, but the odds of hitting on normals is too great and you literally cannot just give them away.

I think there is a market for them. Breeding value, not so much. I had an easier time selling normal Ball pythons than I did selling morphs this season. Although selling 1 morph was equal or greater than all my normal sales combined.

As far as price going up.....probably not unless importing them is outlawed.

I'm not even a breeder yet (but I have some business sense acquired outside of breeder), and I don't foresee the price of normals going up.

There will always be some small value for normals in terms of pets, while they may not have much value to breeders. Let's face it, big dollar morphs pretty typically go to other breeders and hobbyists willing to pay those big bucks. Pet keepers buy normals, pastels, and other cheap animals (some exceptions exist). But that doesn't mean the price of those normals, pastels, whatever will ever go up.

As for what is done with normals... hopefully they are treated with respect that all living animals deserve. I'd rather see them fed to another animal than just thrown in the trash (regardless whether dead or alive when it happens). I don't like the thought of it, but it's a better use than to just be trash. I feel the same way about roosters (I keep chickens, and though I don't purposefully breed them, I have let my hens hatch a couple eggs just to see what comes out)... roosters are practically worthless unless you are breeding chickens (and even then you don't need a bunch of roosters). They are pretty, but they can be noisy, can be aggressive (not always), and are generally unwelcome in most residential areas (even those where hens are allowed). So you can't keep roosters, and can't really even give them away. Better to use them for something (food) than to just throw them away. At least then their life had some purpose.

Just made a deal a while ago. Bought a rack. With it came 5 normal female breeders and a male. Hearing the girls are near worthless bummed me out a little! Either way, they are beautiful girls and good pets if anything. (Actually, the male is a pastel.)


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Originally Posted by Jackie

Just made a deal a while ago. Bought a rack. With it came 5 normal female breeders and a male. Hearing the girls are near worthless bummed me out a little! Either way, they are beautiful girls and good pets if anything. (Actually, the male is a pastel.)


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I would say there's no reason to feel bummed, value and worth of something can be totally subjective at times, and to me it sounds like for you, they do have value. I produced two animals this season that to me were more valuable than what they would sell for...so they are still sitting in my rack. What I will say though, is put some thought into what you're going to do with all these animals, how much sense does it really make to breed a pastel male to five females (if that's the direction you sound like you're going here). There are a lot of breeders moving out single and double gene proven males at shows to replace them with something else, either more genes or newer ones...animals that have more than paid for themselves, will likely be out of future breeding rotations and it's worth it to give someone a break on the price to free up the cage space at home...just something you might want to think about.