Leonardo is sick, swelling/bleeding...

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

A ball pythons head and mouth are the most sensitive areas of their body's. As such the least little thing will cause an abscess/infection, You feed F/T but that doesn't mean that in the eating process some slight damage didn't happen. A simple scratch inside the mouth even from a dead rodent's tooth or toe nail is more that enough to allow bacteria to settle in and reek havoc. I've seen this only twice in my years of keeping and breeding, one time the abscess ruptured the snake healed and all was fine. The second time I spent 2 months treating with a regiment of alternating Baytril and Forataz in the end nothing was able to fully heal the animal and we lost it.

My suggesting would be this..Feed smaller meals and about half as often the less stress and work damaged area is having to do to heal the better. Second if you haven't already get injectable antibiotics, snakes metabolisms are so slow that oral treatments almost never work for more serious issues, that coupled with the fact that the stress involved in giving them is just as bad to the animal as the injury. Third, your snake is off limits to handling, videos, pictures, show and tell or even the morning stroll while you're having your coffee. Your snake needs to focus all it's energy on healing. Lastly bump up your temps just a few degrees over your normal keeping temps, as cold blooded critters snakes use the extra warmth to help speed things like digestion and antibody product up, Heat = Bio - fuel

Please let us know how it turns out.

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I appreciate your insight Ed. Did you see my post about the post-vet outcome? He is quite certain this is not an abscess. Leo has 2-3 different types of hemorrhaging in his mouth. He believes it is cell related.

As for your advice on his care, I bumped the temperature up first thing (I did not mention that yet, so obviously no way for you to know.) And I am aware oral was not the best option. Which is why I switched vets. (Paired with the lack of cultures)

I have not been "strolling" around with him. The pictures and video I posted were for medical documentation, taken right before his baytril dose. Not just because I felt like taking pictures of him.

Again, I appreciate your advice, but please understand that I am entrusting his care and diagnosis to a very highly recommended / regarded herp vet who has seen him first hand.

Perhaps I read it in the wrong "tone", and your advice was meant as a blanket care guide for anyone who may read this in the future. If that is the case, then I apologize for reading into it. It just came off a bit, condescending?

Oh gosh I'm sorry you took it that way. Totally not my intent at all really sorry it came off that way. I was just passing along general info of some things that in the few times I've had to deal with this problem have been just sort of auto pilot for me that you or anyone might find useful. Please keep us informed on how your little one is doing.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Oh gosh I'm sorry you took it that way. Totally not my intent at all really sorry it came off that way. I was just passing along general info of some things that in the few times I've had to deal with this problem have been just sort of auto pilot for me that you or anyone might find useful. Please keep us informed on how your little one is doing.

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No worries at all Ed. I figured I was reading into it poorly as you have never been anything but helpful. I apologize as well and blame it on lack of sleep and too much worry!

Now, on to the Leonardo update. Got the call from Dr.Bruce about his bloodwork.

Everything came back perfect. His white count, liver values, red cell structure, everything. Zero signs of infection in the blood. There were two very small items that he told me about, but so minimal he said he would not worry about it at all. He said his protein levels were a bit (very small bit) high, indicating very slight dehydration. And his glucose was a tad low, but he said with the blood being shipped over night sometimes that can affect the glucose count slightly so he would not think anything of it with how slight the differences were.

He's shown the pictures and results to multiple herp vets across the US, with very little insight as to what might be causing the swelling/hemorrhaging.

He has one theory...but it's a bit out there, and he said he has never heard of a case of this happening, so he's not comfortable saying definitively one way or another.
It has to do with the rats he was eating. He was the only one of my snakes eating this size f/t rat from an online source. I have switched him to my own personally bred rats as per the Doctor's recommendation. Hopefully he will be able to figure out a way to test either the remaining rats from the bag, or Leo without tissue samples/necropsy.

If this theory pans out, then it could be months before we see an improvement. Thankfully, with the good blood work, if we caught it in time, it will only get better from here. Still no medication prescribed as there was zero infection, so it's a waiting game while the herp vets around the US pow-wow and try to figure out my little unique baby.

Thanks everyone for all the prayers/well wishes/advice/kind words etc. It is very much appreciated.

Thanks for the update. Have you thought about informing the company you bought the rodents from that there might be a problem with their stock? Not suggesting you tell us their name until there's more definitive proof, but maybe making them aware?

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Originally Posted by Inarikins

Thanks for the update. Have you thought about informing the company you bought the rodents from that there might be a problem with their stock? Not suggesting you tell us their name until there's more definitive proof, but maybe making them aware?

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I'm going to be contacting them shortly with a list of questions. I definitely do not want to raise any alarms without definitive proof, but I will ask the questions the vet told me to and relay the answers to him. If anything comes of it, I will give them the full information on the findings. I don't want to come off as accusing them of anything, or make them feel like I would come after them. The most important thing to me is getting the answers, and getting to the bottom of this.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

I'm going to ve contacting them shortly with a list of questions. I definitely do noy want to raise any alarms without definitive proof, but I will ask the questions the vet told me to and relay the answers to him. If anything comes of it, I will give them the full information on the findings. I don't wwant to come off as accusing them of anything, or make them feel like I would come after them. The most important thing to me is getting the answers, and getting to the bottom of this.

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Good approach, and best wishes for your boy.

So here's an interesting tidbit...
When I checked on leo moments ago, his head was swollen worse than I have ever seen it thus far. The vet mentioned that some calm handling, letting him step ladder my hands (by having a hand slightly elevated, he crawls to it, then bring that hand down and use other hand, like a never ending step ladder I guess?) would help reduce the swelling. So, I wanted to give it a shot. Wow, is all I can say...So here's the pics (I apologize, they are cell pics, one handed, while trying to keep a snake happy with the other..)

Before picture. Worst I've seen yet on his swelling. Picture taken at 4:02pm
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...pse06f2c53.jpg

After pictures. Significant reduction in swelling, though slight swelling is still present. Picture taken at 4:09p (Yea, 7 minutes.)
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps82047f22.jpg
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...psd8cd197f.jpg

Tiffany that is so weird...

I know :( but at least I'm able to get the swellng down some now, thanks to the vet.

That is the strangest thing ever....