Immune System Breakdown: Comparing bp morphs to purebred dogs

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Originally Posted by 3skulls

The AKC is screwing up a lot of the breeds.

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Just to note, it's not the AKC screwing up the breeds. The AKC is a registry and an advocate of purebred dogs. The standards accepted into the AKC are actually set by each breed's parent club. Each breed's parent club is made up of members, some of whom are influential judges and breeders and handlers in each breed. When judges put up "trendy" dogs instead of those that adhere to the standard, or award "favor" wins to handlers & breeders, those trends are sometimes taken back to the parent club and actually voted upon as proposed standard changes. Responsibility for the overall heath and well-being of each breed should start with the parent club.

As far as ball pythons go, I think the prevalence of RI or other diseases has more to do with husbandry issues than they do with any sort of inbreeding depression related to color mutations. Mites, stagnantly humid air, cross-contamination and other stressful factors can pack quite a punch...IMO it shows up more in morphs because that is what folks are focused on breeding.

$.02...

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Originally Posted by Kara

Just to note, it's not the AKC screwing up the breeds. The AKC is a registry and an advocate of purebred dogs. The standards accepted into the AKC are actually set by each breed's parent club. Each breed's parent club is made up of members, some of whom are influential judges and breeders and handlers in each breed. When judges put up "trendy" dogs instead of those that adhere to the standard, or award "favor" wins to handlers & breeders, those trends are sometimes taken back to the parent club and actually voted upon as proposed standard changes. Responsibility for the overall heath and well-being of each breed should start with the parent club.

As far as ball pythons go, I think the prevalence of RI or other diseases has more to do with husbandry issues than they do with any sort of inbreeding depression related to color mutations. Mites, stagnantly humid air, cross-contamination and other stressful factors can pack quite a punch...IMO it shows up more in morphs because that is what folks are focused on breeding.

$.02...

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Bah................it's all because a couple of idiots advocate keeping their snakes on pine bedding, feeding them in their enclosures, do not use belly heat and keep their snakes in glass cages with screen tops. Right Kara? ;)

The problem with the major Kennel clubs is that they are closed registries that do not take adequate steps to prevent fadists from hijacking breeds from functionality to frivolity. As you state, this does not mean that they are screwing up the breeds - just that they do not do enough to stop judges and breeders from screwing them up.

There are some breeds, such as dalmations, flat coated retrievers, rhodesian ridgebacks, etc. which are so rife with genetic illnesses that they have become an accepted part of owning such breeds. With rhodesian ridgebacks, the mutation that is their ridge is actually connected with dermoid sinus (a mild form of spina bifida).

It may surprise some that a percentage of ridgeback are born without a ridge. If you are surprised, don't feel bad - since ridgeless ridgebacks don't fit the breed standard, those puppies are usually culled.

So, by promoting a mutation that is actually a form of a genetic disease, and by supporting a breed standard that prohibits the poodle and pug crowd from making any money off of a ridgeless ridgeback, these dogs are purposefully bred in such a way that propagates a known health issue.

The closed registry problem is a different issue, and I won't go into it here. Let's just say that in clubs with open registries, and clubs that promote functionality over form, these genetic health issues are more effectively dealt with.

We already know that there are mutations in the ball python world that are apparent markers for health issues - such as the spiders and the wobbles and the female deserts and their fertility/potential binding issues. I'll make a bold prediction that before Mike41793's nuts drop, we will be made aware of even more mutations that carry with them health issues.

I would like to point out that Ridgebacks are actually an extremely stout and healthy breed. The only serious issue they have is dermoid sinus which is easily detected and fixed with a quick surgery and is actually very rare.
I own a Ridgeback and am an advocate for the breed. Many breeders whom I associate with do Stud Trades and are constantly introducing African bloodlines back into the American bloodlines. (Which all originated from africa)
Your point is not lost though. Dalmations, Dobermans, GSPs, etc. Have had alot of issues. This is from breeders not outcrossing. Or even doing breeder loans. Line breeding is probably the single biggest issue with Dogs. That includes culling ridgeless ridgebacks. Alot, if not all, of he breeders in the SD area adopt out ridgeless ridgebacks. There are plenty of them and they look awesome and are great dogs. I wanted a Ridge so I got mine from a breeder who I know constantly trades out males and gets fresh males from Africa to insure new blood.


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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Bah................it's all because a couple of idiots advocate keeping their snakes on pine bedding, feeding them in their enclosures, do not use belly heat and keep their snakes in glass cages with screen tops. Right Kara? ;)

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ROFL!! I can't believe you left out hot rocks!! Where are the hot rocks?!?! In all seriousness though, "user error" does play a big part. Not to say that there aren't specific morphs with health issues - that's a known fact. I just don't think it's a widespread, across the board, "morphs are more prone to illness because they're morphs" kinda thing. But hey, I don't even keep ball pythons anymore, so take it with a grain of salt. :D

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

The problem with the major Kennel clubs is that they are closed registries that do not take adequate steps to prevent fadists from hijacking breeds from functionality to frivolity. As you state, this does not mean that they are screwing up the breeds - just that they do not do enough to stop judges and breeders from screwing them up.

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Agreed - I would like to see the parent clubs held to a more rigid set of expectations by the AKC, but until those parent clubs demand registry changes that will allow the improvement of their respective breeds, we're in for more of the same old same old. I believe that ultimately the responsibility lies more heavily upon the parent clubs than the nat'l registry...but that's another discussion entirely. ;)

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Originally Posted by Jesse Hermanson

I would like to point out that Ridgebacks are actually an extremely stout and healthy breed. The only serious issue they have is dermoid sinus which is easily detected and fixed with a quick surgery and is actually very rare.
I own a Ridgeback and am an advocate for the breed. Many breeders whom I associate with do Stud Trades and are constantly introducing African bloodlines back into the American bloodlines. (Which all originated from africa)
Your point is not lost though. Dalmations, Dobermans, GSPs, etc. Have had alot of issues. This is from breeders not outcrossing. Or even doing breeder loans. Line breeding is probably the single biggest issue with Dogs. That includes culling ridgeless ridgebacks. Alot, if not all, of he breeders in the SD area adopt out ridgeless ridgebacks. There are plenty of them and they look awesome and are great dogs. I wanted a Ridge so I got mine from a breeder who I know constantly trades out males and gets fresh males from Africa to insure new blood.


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My parents have lost three ridgebacks to cancer over the last 12 years. None of the dogs ever made it past 8 years of age. All three came from different breeders. First one died at 6. The second female died at 8 and the first female also died at 6.

Either they have really crappy luck, or there are issues in this breed.

We also have some friends who live in Poway (your neck of the woods?) who lost their first ridgeback, Enzo, to cancer and their second ridgeback Kobe to a heart condition. I need to check and see if their third ridgeback (Kali) is still alive.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

My parents have lost three ridgebacks to cancer over the last 12 years. None of the dogs ever made it past 8 years of age. All three came from different breeders. First one died at 6. The second female died at 8 and the first female also died at 6.

Either they have really crappy luck, or there are issues in this breed.

We also have some friends who live in Poway (your neck of the woods?) who lost their first ridgeback, Enzo, to cancer and their second ridgeback Kobe to a heart condition. I need to check and see if their third ridgeback (Kali) is still alive.

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That is very close to me. That is really sad. I personally believe cancer has to do with dog food but I cannot prove any of that. My Dobermans had many many more issues than my ridgeback and the ones I know. It may just be my circle of friends who have had good luck.

No matter what, it is important to make sure to introduce unrelated dogs/snakes into collections for new blood. No matter what if you keep and breed your own stock, without adding new blood frequently you are hurting the gene pool.
Dog breeding in general has alot of issues. It takes alot of dogs to make a certain breed so the genes SHOULD be strong. Line breeding or sticking with ones own stock ends up bringing out any genetic issues that may have been hidden.

Anyway, great posts all around. You have alot of good info in them. And I agree with them. In my personal experience I have seen Ridgebacks that are very hearty and healthy. But I cannot base the entire population on that I guess.
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Originally Posted by Jesse Hermanson

That is very close to me. That is really sad. I personally believe cancer has to do with dog food but I cannot prove any of that. My Dobermans had many many more issues than my ridgeback and the ones I know. It may just be my circle of friends who have had good luck.

No matter what, it is important to make sure to introduce unrelated dogs/snakes into collections for new blood. No matter what if you keep and breed your own stock, without adding new blood frequently you are hurting the gene pool.
Dog breeding in general has alot of issues. It takes alot of dogs to make a certain breed so the genes SHOULD be strong. Line breeding or sticking with ones own stock ends up bringing out any genetic issues that may have been hidden.

Anyway, great posts all around. You have alot of good info in them. And I agree with them. In my personal experience I have seen Ridgebacks that are very hearty and healthy. But I cannot base the entire population on that I guess.
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I hear you - we had a staffie bull that we just had to have put down - dog made it to 16. His mother died when she was 17.........but I know plenty of people with staffie bulls who's dogs have mast cell tumor issues and lose their dogs to cancer fairly early...........

Speaking about Doberman Pinschers, I still think the AKC is really ruining a lot of these dogs.

They consider it completely ethical to breed an INFECTED vWD dog, as long as it is bred to a non-carrier. (yay hets!! Not! -_-)
I think that's awful.
And according to statistics, 55% of Dobermans are carriers. Approximately 35% are infected. And somewhere around 10% are actually non carriers/non infected. (other sources will say 25% non carrier/non infected, 49% carrier, and 26% infected)

But either way, if the AKC was really about health, they wouldn't breed any infected or carrier dogs at all.
Even if a carrier breeds to a non carrier, it still passes those vWD genes to some of the pups, thus creating more carriers. The only way to guarantee 100% non carrier/infected pups is just to breed clean dogs. And that rarely happens....

The AKC does not breed anything. They set up guidelines for what is to be called a Doberman or Rhodesian Ridgeback, they set a standard. BREEDERS are to blame for all these problems with ethics. They are pairing up infected animals to make money. (Sounds familiar) but just like in the snake world, its up to the breeders to make healthy strong animals that look good too.
The idea of the AKC standard leads to issues with health, but its the breeders who are at fault.

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Its both breeders and AKC. The AKC allow such breedings to occur. Like I mentioned, they say its ethical to breed infected dogs. So since they say its ethical, breeders go ahead and breed those infected animals.

They also say that it is unethical to breed white dobermans ('albinos'). I personally find it more unethical to breed infected or vWD carriers than white z factored dobes.....

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