I Give Up On FT

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

I do wonder though how many breeding pairs of rats it would take to feed 3 babies and 4 adults.

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I have 6 trios that are maintaining 21 snakes with some surplus.;)

Not to thread hijack or anything, but I am going out to buy tubs this weekend to set up a rodent breeding project for my increasing collection. I was planning on breeding ASFs but the comments in this thread have me rethinking this plan.

I found a local source for ASFs who will sell me a 1.4 ASF group for $14 which I thought would be a good group to start with. I was thinking ASF for a couple reasons.

1. My big(ish) normal female has always been a finicky and picky eater. She's 4 years old and just over 1200g. She was a mouser for a long while and would take 2 per feeding, but I've had SOME success in getting her to take rats. The problem is that she will only take what I would call X-Small rats, and sporadically at best. Anything bigger than that and she acts scared and doesn't eat. She now hasn't eaten in 28 days on X-Small rats and I don't want to go back to mice. I was hoping to breed her this year, but I'm starting to doubt it's going to happen... I'm thinking ASFs might be too tempting for her to refuse and I might have a shot this season...

2. The size factor. I have read how ASFs never get too big for a bp to eat. I've wasted SO much money on rats that I've bought small and after a refusal or two, they're too big for her to eat. With ASFs, I could just pull out the refused rat, drop it back in the bin and not have to worry about them outgrowing my snakes.

But, I now am questioning this again specifically because of the comments about not buying ASF eaters. I'm planning to start small scale breeding soon. I was hoping this year, but it might be pushed back to next. Is it really that hard to unload ASF eaters? I would never want to sell a baby to someone if it is going to be a problem for someone else...

Any thoughts or suggestions?

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Originally Posted by Inknsteel

. Is it really that hard to unload ASF eaters? I would never want to sell a baby to someone if it is going to be a problem for someone else...

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I breed ASFs for all of my breeders and will continue to do so for as long as I'm in this hobby. In addition to the very favorable size differences, Norway rats and mice are disgusting and I absolutely can't tolerate smelling that every day. A single live Norway rat was brought into my snake room on feeding day last week and easily overpowered the smell of 60+ ASFs. It's ridiculous.

That being said, a lot of people won't buy a snake that has ever touched an ASF. People who either breed or have other access to ASFs won't care. It's up to you what route to go, just be aware that if you do start the babies on ASFs it might take longer to unload them. Personally I chose to buy a bunch of F/T rat pinks/pups and will be starting all of my non-holdbacks on those.

With proper ventilation and care, normal rats don't smell that bad.

I have a rodent room with approximately 60 breeders and 200 or so pinks through smalls. It's about 7' x 10' and sealed off from the rest of the building. I have a 500 sq ft/min fan exhausting for 30 minutes each hour.

I clean once a week. I use pine pellets for adults and nursing moms and their litters once the pups' eyes are open, and pine shavings for younger litters. The pine pellets make a huge difference in the smell. When the exhaust is running when I enter the room, there's a very slight smell. If the exhaust is not running, the smell is stronger, but still not bad.

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Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

With proper ventilation and care, normal rats don't smell that bad.

I have a rodent room with approximately 60 breeders and 200 or so pinks through smalls. It's about 7' x 10' and sealed off from the rest of the building. I have a 500 sq ft/min fan exhausting for 30 minutes each hour.

I clean once a week. I use pine pellets for adults and nursing moms and their litters once the pups' eyes are open, and pine shavings for younger litters. The pine pellets make a huge difference in the smell. When the exhaust is running when I enter the room, there's a very slight smell. If the exhaust is not running, the smell is stronger, but still not bad.

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I can appreciate that the pine helps with the smell, but pine (and cedar) bedding are toxic for rats. It causes respiratory issues. Good on you if you're having success with it, but I wouldn't generally recommend it.

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Originally Posted by Inknsteel

Not to thread hijack or anything, but I am going out to buy tubs this weekend to set up a rodent breeding project for my increasing collection. I was planning on breeding ASFs but the comments in this thread have me rethinking this plan.

I found a local source for ASFs who will sell me a 1.4 ASF group for $14 which I thought would be a good group to start with. I was thinking ASF for a couple reasons.

1. My big(ish) normal female has always been a finicky and picky eater. She's 4 years old and just over 1200g. She was a mouser for a long while and would take 2 per feeding, but I've had SOME success in getting her to take rats. The problem is that she will only take what I would call X-Small rats, and sporadically at best. Anything bigger than that and she acts scared and doesn't eat. She now hasn't eaten in 28 days on X-Small rats and I don't want to go back to mice. I was hoping to breed her this year, but I'm starting to doubt it's going to happen... I'm thinking ASFs might be too tempting for her to refuse and I might have a shot this season...

2. The size factor. I have read how ASFs never get too big for a bp to eat. I've wasted SO much money on rats that I've bought small and after a refusal or two, they're too big for her to eat. With ASFs, I could just pull out the refused rat, drop it back in the bin and not have to worry about them outgrowing my snakes.

But, I now am questioning this again specifically because of the comments about not buying ASF eaters. I'm planning to start small scale breeding soon. I was hoping this year, but it might be pushed back to next. Is it really that hard to unload ASF eaters? I would never want to sell a baby to someone if it is going to be a problem for someone else...

Any thoughts or suggestions?

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It's up to you, just remember if you start your snakes on ASFs you'll need to have access to a constant supply, whether you breed them yourself or buy them. If you decide you don't want to breed ASFs, can't afford it, or whatever, you'll be out of luck unless you can find a local breeder.

Pine in rodents dont cause Respiratory problems. Only the few that are allergic to pine it may cause Mycro flares. About 99% of rodent breeders use pine, as do i and my rats are healthy and strong 5+ years on pine.

guess I'm just lucky ??

Out of my 6 snakes, ALL eat frozen / thawed, and eat it very well !!!
None of them were on frozen / thawed when I got them. 5 were hatchlings and used to either live mice or rats. All took frozen / thawed immediately for the first (at my house) meal.

One is a 4 to 5 year old female that I got a couple of month ago. She ALWAYS ate live. She took frozen / thawed for her first feeding for me. Within 5 days of getting her. She is on xlg rats. She is the easiest, you juts lay the f/t rat into the cage, with its head into the hide, and in the morning its gone, LOL. Easy as pie.

The younger ones do strike and they strike hard, I have to make sure I'm quick when I open the tub, LOL.

Like I said, I must just be lucky.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Pine in rodents dont cause Respiratory problems. Only the few that are allergic to pine it may cause Mycro flares. About 99% of rodent breeders use pine, as do i and my rats are healthy and strong 5+ years on pine.

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Sorry, but all the evidence I have seen says otherwise. Can you provide scientific evidence that pine does not have harmful effects on the lungs and liver of rodents?

http://www.afrma.org/rminfo2a.htm

This is just one of many, many articles about it.

Now, I have no idea if a rodent with a compromised immune system or liver disease would affect the snake it was fed to. And I'm not trying to convince people to switch. If anything, I'd like to be convinced that pine isn't harmful, because I would love one more way to dampen the rat odor.

Having done some more research, I am seeing that kiln dried pine removes many of the harmful phenols. I am gonna look further into this. :) For those of you who use pine, is it kiln dried/heated?