Interesting Twist on Toffee Project

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Assumptions are not fact. We all know what they say about assuming.
Is it not compatible with Lav? The breedings are still being tried. It is possible. We do have to wait and see. Sure it may not be but we just don't know yet. It could be that the Toffee is an inbetween and can work with both. I am not the only one who thinks this can be possible.

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There is always going to be a small chance that every single toffee is het albino also, so pick a number, how many eggs do you want to see until it is "fact"? For most of us, there is enough evidence from the breedings already done. Nothing is ever going to be 100% fact so you have to make an assumption at some point.

As I said in the other thread, Albino and Lav do not lay on the same locus. So toffee has to lay on one or the other, there is no in between, its just simply not possible, or you guys have a new theory on how DNA is built?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

It could be that the Toffee is an inbetween and can work with both. I am not the only one who thinks this can be possible.

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Very very unlikely. I'm having trouble imagining a scenario where toffee and albino are allelic,; albino is not compatible with lav albino, yet toffee is compatible with lav albino? Genetically it just doesn't make any sense.

The simplest and most plausible explanation has already been presented.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

There is always going to be a small chance that every single toffee is het albino also, so pick a number, how many eggs do you want to see until it is "fact"? For most of us, there is enough evidence from the breedings already done. Nothing is ever going to be 100% fact so you have to make an assumption at some point.

As I said in the other thread, Albino and Lav do not lay on the same locus. So toffee has to lay on one or the other, there is no in between, its just simply not possible, or you guys have a new theory on how DNA is built?

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Because you know genetics. New theory on how DNA is built? Really? And I though you were better than that. Yea because you can tell what they are as hatchlings? You know how they are going to look as adults? The people actually involved in the project don't know yet what is going on but you do right? Come on now. Conjecture and assumptions by people not even in the project much less even personally seen the animals.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Because you know genetics. New theory on how DNA is built? Really? And I though you were better than that.

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I'm trying to be nice here, so i will just ask...why do you keep insisting it is possible? Apparently I know nothing, so ed-you-mah-kate me please great master. "Just because I say so" doesn't fly with me.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Yea because you can tell what they are as hatchlings? You know how they are going to look as adults?

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well if an albino looking creature popped out of the egg from a het toffee x het albino pairing...what else would it be besides a toffino? The one produced last year looks like a toffee (at least to me) it almost a year old now, so we atleast have a good idea of what its going to look like as an adult. and what does this have to do with the current disagreement? :confused:

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

The people actually involved in the project don't know yet what is going on but you do right? Come on now. Conjecture and assumptions by people not even in the project much less even personally seen the animals.

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The people involved with the project both seem pretty sure they know whats going on .... why do you think they do not? Why do we have to see animal in person or be involved with the project to have a basic understanding of how loci and alleles work? Information is right in front of us, what more do you need.

You are the one saying "This is so" are you not? I never did. I said it may be possible, oh nay sayer.

You say Toffino yet the animal appears to be a Toffee. Until it is bred out and proven what it is then NO one will know exactly what it is. Right now it is a mystery. What if it is a double visual? What if the Toffee gene takes over some how and actually creates a Toffee? But yet you and a few others say exactly what it is? The people working with the project aren't doing that. Just some of the experts.

I have not seen one person involved with this project make such bold statements yet of what is going on as I have seen you make.

And sorry sir but you are no genetic expert and you know really nothing beyond what the majority of breeders knows bout ball python genetics. I am no expert on genetics. I do know about Loci, allels and genomes as well as other genetic junk. I am no expert but I also don't pretend to be. I also know what Dominance means, what INCOMPLETE dominance means and what co-dominance means and what each of then do.

Until some one takes the time and money needed to map the ball python genome then all we have to go on is what is proven out by breeding.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

What if the Toffee gene takes over some how and actually creates a Toffee?

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Then it would be a dominant mutation, which it is not.

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I have not seen one person involved with this project make such bold statements yet of what is going on as I have seen you make.

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They are saying it is compatible, which is what is being said here.

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And sorry sir but you are no genetic expert and you know really nothing beyond what the majority of breeders knows bout ball python genetics. I am no expert on genetics. I do know about Loci, allels and genomes as well as other genetic junk. I am no expert but I also don't pretend to be. I also know what Dominance means, what INCOMPLETE dominance means and what co-dominance means and what each of then do.

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Well I do work in a research lab that deals heavily with genetics. What you are proposing is extremely unlikely. Like I said, I still can't imagine a scenario where toffee and albino are compatible, albino is not compatible with lav albino, yet toffee is?

If you can think of such a scenario, then please share it with us. "It could be possible" isn't a scenario or hypothesis.

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Until some one takes the time and money needed to map the ball python genome then all we have to go on is what is proven out by breeding.

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Probably never going to happen. That takes a lot of time and $$ with not much to gain. And even then, its not going to be useful for your average hobbyist or even big time breeder.

@ Blue Apple Herps Well put. I think this is one of those issues that is not going to be resolved for a few more years if ever. But I do 100% agree with you.

I was starting to wonder if you were a troll, but even if you are, im having fun now :D

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

You are the one saying "This is so" are you not? I never did. I said it may be possible, oh nay sayer.

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You still fail to explain how it is possible, but I explained myself multiple times, in case you missed it....

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

there cannot be more than 2 alleles on a locus, when a baby is coming to be, you get 1 allele from a locus from mom and 1 allele form the same locus from dad.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

As I said in the other thread, Albino and Lav do not lay on the same locus. So toffee has to lay on one or the other, there is no in between, its just simply not possible, or you guys have a new theory on how DNA is built?

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and from the other thread to you

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

We have this thing called a locus, this is were said morphs sits, albino and lav albino have already been proven NOT to sit on the same locus and assuming we don't have a dbl het, this guy proves albino and toffee DO sit on the same locus (aka compatible). therefore it cannot be compatible with lav albino since it does not sit on the same locus.

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So please correct me where I am wrong on my understanding of how loci and alleles work please? I even drew on a picture to explain myself since I obviously don't make any sense.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...graphics-2.jpg

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

You say Toffino yet the animal appears to be a Toffee. Until it is bred out and proven what it is then NO one will know exactly what it is. Right now it is a mystery. What if it is a double visual?

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A het Toffee was bred to a het albino... therefore it is a toffino. Your assuming these snakes are not what the people involved with the project are saying they are with your "what if"

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

What if the Toffee gene takes over some how and actually creates a Toffee?

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What if pastel is actually a recessive gene and just so happens that every pastel that was bred to a het pastel and no one has ever hit the odds on hetxhet breeding and then it acts all crazy when two homozygous pastels are bred together and some how makes what we call a super pastel.

I can play the what if game also.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

But yet you and a few others say exactly what it is? The people working with the project aren't doing that. Just some of the experts.

I have not seen one person involved with this project make such bold statements yet of what is going on as I have seen you make.

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Ummm... check the video in the first post? you also need to still explain to me how you need to be involved with the project to know whats going on? Unless your assuming their all lying to us?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

And sorry sir but you are no genetic expert and you know really nothing beyond what the majority of breeders knows bout ball python genetics. I am no expert on genetics. I do know about Loci, allels and genomes as well as other genetic junk. I am no expert but I also don't pretend to be. I also know what Dominance means, what INCOMPLETE dominance means and what co-dominance means and what each of then do.

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congrads, you know how to classify things. YAY for mandel. Which btw has nothing to do with the disagreement. Nice attempt at slander though. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Until some one takes the time and money needed to map the ball python genome then all we have to go on is what is proven out by breeding.

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generic statement, we can never 100% prove anything, 99.9% is just not good enough. :rolleyes:

Troll? LoL. Realy? I think I would not fit into the term of a Troll.

Ok. I don't understand why you feel the need to make this into such a big deal. I said it could be possible for Toffee and Lav to be compatible some how. Why not? It appears to be compatible some how with Albino. Who would have ever thought that Toffee and Albino would have been compatible? If I had said a year ago that I thought it would be possible you would be saying the same thing you are now. I don't appreciate you trying to use your basic knowledge of genetics and trying to make your self seam so knowledgeable while trying to make me seam so un knowledgeable and a troll. Thanks for the attacks.

Apparently in all of your knowledge in genetics you have not learned about Polygenic traits. Some traits are determined by the combined effect of more than one pair of genes. These are called Polygenic or continuous traits. Most color pigments are polygenic traits because they are influenced by more than one allele at different loci. The result is the perception of continuous gradation in the expression of these traits.

Some Theories on Genetics:
The Mendel Theory
The Bruce Lowe Theory
Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium Theory
and The Galton Theory

Here, I can say a bunch of stuff just like you but I am not going to use pretty drawings.I will have some things colored blue so that you wont miss them. :P

Trait or Characteristic
The physical manifestation of gene actions. A trait could be blue eyes, blond hair color, and so forth.

Genotype Refers to the exact genes and alleles (genetic code) an individual possesses.

Genotype is also used to refer to the pair of alleles present at a single locus. With alleles 'A' and 'a' there are three possible genotypes AA, Aa and aa. With three alleles 1, 2, 3 there are six possible genotypes: 11, 12, 13, 22, 23, 33. First we must appreciate that genes do not act in isolation. The genome in which a genotype is found can affect the expression of that genotype, and the environment can affect the phenotype.
Phenotype The physical result you can see (or measure) that a genotype produces.

Homozygous When both alleles of a gene pair (locus) are the same, they are known as homozygous.

Heterozygous When each allele of a gene pair (locus) are different from each other, they are known as heterozygous

Dominant Refers to an allele that will always express itself in the phenotype when it is present. It will "override" other recessive alleles

Recessive Refers to an allele that can only express itself in the phenotype when a dominant allele is not present along with it. Recessive alleles can only express themselves when they are homozygous... that is, when both alleles are recessive, and there is no dominant allele to override them.

Partial or Incomplete Dominant
Refers to an allele that has a different or more intense phenotypic action in its homozygous state, than in it's heterozygous state. When the genotype is heterozygous for this locus, only part of the trait is visible in the phenotype. When homozygous for both alleles... the effect can be said to be "doubled"-- the two alleles together cause more visible effect.

Co-Dominant Alleles Refers to the case when two different alleles are present, both express themselves in the phenotype.

Never heard of Linked Traits?
Linked Traits or Linkage Loci that are very close together on the same chromosome are often "linked". That is, the genetic material "crosses over" in groups and blocks of amino acids (rather than completely randomly) and the linked alleles are very likely to be transferred to the offspring together as a "team". The closer the loci are to each other on the chromosome, the less likely the "team" will be broken up. The farther away the loci are... the more likely the "team" will be broken up. Loci that are on different chromosomes are not considered "linked".

PleitropicGenes that affect more than one trait.

Multiple-allele SeriesThe ABO blood type system is also an example of a trait that is controlled by more than just a single pair of alleles. In other words, it is due to a multiple-allele series. In this case, there are three alleles (A, B, and O), but each individual only inherits two of them (one from each parent).


Epistasis Refers to the condition where the genotype at one locus has a direct effect on the expression (phenotype) of the gene pair/alleles at a different locus. Typically... the instructions at one gene locus masks or overrides the instructions at another. The locus that masks another is called the Epistatic locus. The locus that is masked, or overridden, is referred to as the Hypostatic locus.

PolygenicPolygenic inheritance can be explained by additive effects of many loci: if each "capital" allele contributes one increment to the phenotype. With one locus and additive effects we have three phenotypic classes: AA, Aa and aa. With two loci and two alleles in a strictly additive model (i.e., no epistasis or other modifying effects) we can have five phenotypic classes aabb<Aabb=aaBb<AaBb=AAbb=aaBB<AABb=AaBB<AABB and the intermediate phenotypic values can be produced in more ways, so should be more frequent. The more loci affecting the trait, the greater number of phenotypic classes.

Dilute or Dilution Genes A dilute gene is one that causes the hair (and/or skin) pigment to be diluted... that is, contains less pigment.

Lethal Traits or Genes Genes that are lethal (cause the animal's death either prior to birth or soon after) are usually Partially Dominant. Many have no detrimental effect in their heterozygous form, but are lethal in their homozygous forms.

Regulator genes
Regulatory genes can either initiate or block the expression of other genes.

How about Stuttering Alleles?

Quite frankly your attacks bore me. You seam to be one of those who likes to feel superior by trying to make others seam inferior. It does not work on me.

I guess that all of the ones working this project that are also breeding their het Toffees with Lav and het lavs are just doing those breedings for what?..... just to waste those Lavs for a year or two for nothing? Yea ok I buy that. I am also willing to waste my breeding females for a season or two.


I am hopeful that the Toffee will prove compatible with the Lav as well. Who knows, maybe it won’t. It may not. I wish I was working with the Toffee and that I could try too. If it doesn’t, then no big deal. It’s at least proven to some how be compatible with the Albino. I can't wait and am very excited to see what becomes of this project.

Anyways I am done arguing with you about something Neither of us knows for sure of what’s going on. It's pointless. I really hate the fact that you have turned it into this and that I have entertained it. I will not post further on this subject Thank you very much. Bye- bye now have a great day! :P

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Ok. I don't understand why you feel the need to make this into such a big deal. I said it could be possible for Toffee and Lav to be compatible some how. Why not? It appears to be compatible some how with Albino. Who would have ever thought that Toffee and Albino would have been compatible? If I had said a year ago that I thought it would be possible you would be saying the same thing you are now. I don't appreciate you trying to use your basic knowledge of genetics and trying to make your self seam so knowledgeable while trying to make me seam so un knowledgeable and a troll. Thanks for the attacks.

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The big deal was you starting with no one knows anything, we are all idiots for using the fact put in front of us to make some logical conclusions. Then you bringing nothing to offer with it, besides stating how superior your genetic knowledge is to everyone else. Doesn't this sound like a troll to you? Sorry for the mistake.

No i wouldn't of said the same thing a year ago, it makes perfect sense for them to be compatible, 2 genes that screw with melanin... look at boas, motley and hypo are compatible. Would I have suspected it... no, but this world is full of surprises. The issue with lav and toffee is with the genes laying on 2 different loci... you know im just repeating myself again.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Apparently in all of your knowledge in genetics you have not learned about Polygenic traits. Some traits are determined by the combined effect of more than one pair of genes. These are called Polygenic or continuous traits. Most color pigments are polygenic traits because they are influenced by more than one allele at different loci. The result is the perception of continuous gradation in the expression of these traits.

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This describes why we have some many variations in normals and other morphs. Are you suggesting that the Toffino is the result of this? This is where statistics and looking at previous patterns comes in.... where to see a hint of evidence of this? Unless you know something I don't, the chances of this happening are so astronomically low, its hardly worth mentioning. If we are all idiots because there is a chance of this causing the Toffino... well Ill be an idiot. Also how can you 100% prove this is not the case for every morph?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Some Theories on Genetics:
The Mendel Theory
The Bruce Lowe Theory
Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium Theory
and The Galton Theory

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Failing to see what this has to do with anything? We all know mendel, lowe says female quality is more important than male, Hardy-Weinberg states frequencies remain constant in lab conditions, and Galton says more champions in the blood the better the offspring.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Genotype is also used to refer to the pair of alleles present at a single locus. With alleles 'A' and 'a' there are three possible genotypes AA, Aa and aa. With three alleles 1, 2, 3 there are six possible genotypes: 11, 12, 13, 22, 23, 33. First we must appreciate that genes do not act in isolation. The genome in which a genotype is found can affect the expression of that genotype, and the environment can affect the phenotype.

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This describes exactly what I have been saying... The albino/toffee locus has 3 alleles we know about, including normal. BEL complex has 10 that we know about. making 55 possible genotypes... what were you getting at. You can still only have 2 sitting there at a time.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Never heard of Linked Traits?
Linked Traits or Linkage Loci that are very close together on the same chromosome are often "linked". That is, the genetic material "crosses over" in groups and blocks of amino acids (rather than completely randomly) and the linked alleles are very likely to be transferred to the offspring together as a "team". The closer the loci are to each other on the chromosome, the less likely the "team" will be broken up. The farther away the loci are... the more likely the "team" will be broken up. Loci that are on different chromosomes are not considered "linked".

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Which may describe some of the stuff going on at NERD. I still don't see the connection on the topic. Whats your theory?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Epistasis Refers to the condition where the genotype at one locus has a direct effect on the expression (phenotype) of the gene pair/alleles at a different locus. Typically... the instructions at one gene locus masks or overrides the instructions at another. The locus that masks another is called the Epistatic locus. The locus that is masked, or overridden, is referred to as the Hypostatic locus.

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This doesn't make any sense to me, it seems like your suggestion the toffee gene overides the albino gene, but then it would still require the toffee gene to express itself in the heterozygous form and only do it when the albino gene is present. Again what are the chances of this? Ill continue to be an idiot.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Quite frankly your attacks bore me. You seam to be one of those who likes to feel superior by trying to make others seam inferior. It does not work on me.

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Hypocritical don't you think?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

I guess that all of the ones working this project that are also breeding their het Toffees with Lav and het lavs are just doing those breedings for what?..... just to waste those Lavs for a year or two for nothing? Yea ok I buy that. I am also willing to waste my breeding females for a season or two.

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A double homozygous might be pretty sweet don't ya think?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Anyways I am done arguing with you about something Neither of us knows for sure of what’s going on. It's pointless. I really hate the fact that you have turned it into this and that I have entertained it. I will not post further on this subject Thank you very much. Bye- bye now have a great day! :P

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Hey Reread the thread and look who started the attack... but I welcome you to a civil discussion and elaborate on what you posted above. Finally got something out of you other than "because I said so"