Are ball pythons even [I]slightly[/I] arboreal?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anya

As the OP, I just wanted to clarify something. In no way was I asking a leading question. I was GENUINELY curious. I am not an idiot. I don't have wild, crazy ideas I want to see justified by someone who claims to be an 'expert' on the subject.
I don't just care about my BP's health, I care about his happiness, too. I think one of the best ways to do this is to educate myself as much as possible. To KEEP learning. I think you're underestimating everyone's intelligence.

---

I believe I understand the question you were asking. The problem is that this is a forum, so when someone answers you they are answering other people as well. Its like when you are taking a class and a student asks a question. The teacher knows that their answer isn't just for the student asking but for the whole class. That being said you reinforce my point with your above statement. Your real question I believe is "how can I provide for my snakes happiness as well as its health?" and more specifically "Will providing climbing opportunities have a positive effect on either my snakes happiness or health?" That's a much more complicated question. I would say no. Don't provide things for your snake to climb as thats not your snakes goal. A green tree python seeks trees for safety, ball pythons will follow prey into trees. The motivation is key. People will talk about how climbing is good exercise. So is being handled on a regular basis. I think more floor space trumps climbing opportunities every time. Providing stable branches on the floor of your snakes enclosure gives your snake something it would seek out in the wild. Cover from predatory birds. Your snake doesn't want to be out in the open.

I don't think I am underestimating everyones intelligence, in the same way that a teacher giving a detailed answer above and beyond the question a student asks is not. Individuals are smart, people are stupid. I am trying to not let information be taken out of context by readers as well as posters. I certainly don't mean to offend anyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anya

In no way was I asking a leading question. I was GENUINELY curious. I am not an idiot.

---

I should clarify that the reason I consider "Are ball pythons even slightly arboreal?" a leading question is because its phrased in such a way as to make it easy to say yes. You are nearly guaranteed an answer of YES. I also believe that its misdirected question. By that I mean that its not your real question. It conceals a real question of how do I best provide for my BP. I don't in anyway mean to imply that you are an idiot, being intentionally leading or misdirecting. Its just how we are conditioned as people. The problem is that your second question

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anya

I''m about to put some baked driftwood branches in Axel's tank, partly for attractiveness, partly for (hopefully) functionality. Will he actually use them?

---

is entirely unrelated to whether or not BP's are arboreal. So you have a whole punch of people answering your question, but what question are they answering. I tried to answer both. No to the arboreal, yes to the drift wood.

Egapal I deeply respect you approach and opinions. I believe firmly that debate will increase depth and understanding of a given situation or lesson. I teach in a university as well as manage a mac computer lab. I get where you perspective and how your background influences your statements. (have your re-started it? :cool: )

The original question of slightly arboreal I think we are agreeing has been answered there is ground evidence to support that. Moving on, I don't like using terms like happiness as I am not sure it can be applied. If we say over all heath and stress free I think that can be applied. Do they need to climb no I don't believe so, is there benefit to sacrificing floor space to branches or other *SECURE* climbing items?

The benefits as I see then that if the snake chooses to climb or not it provides over head cover, as anyone whom has dealt with ball pythons many (I think I can say most here) will react quickly to a shadow or object passed over their heads. Most long term captives have shorter lived reactions than young Royals but most will have some reaction. A jerk or stop or a complete withdrawal and coil over the head. Having a static object to provide cover seems to have a calming effect. This is the base principal behind a rack as well a large low over head object.

The second as you mentioned a climbing snake is working muscles and that aids in digestion when not being handled regularly. The regular handling of some snakes causes them stress and that can lead to bigger issues down the road.

The last point I'd make is hard to qualify with any kind of evidence. I have been trying something just out of curiosity, I have 9 Royal Pythons 3 in a rack, one in a screen top tank, one in a side converted tank and 3 in custom snake enclosures. I have been rotating every 8 months or so the 3 from the rack to enclosures and vice versa. Given some time to adjust to the new enclosure (a week or so) they all start to eat and adjust. The interesting part is there seems to be a personality shift. I have been using my most timid and most boisterous and one that is average. All of them seem to alter in the enclosure with lots of cover and stuff to explore. They across the board become less timid (most apparent with my really timid girl) and more attuned to what is going on around them. If I change the water in the enclosure they will often come out sometime that evening and check what is different quite carefully. The rack snakes hide, the only time they make an appearance (looking into the tub) is the night before feeding day and the night of feeding day. The others will often be seen head out of the hide in the late evenings most of the week but for a day or two after feeding day.

It is hard to document that shift and it is not a large enough cross section to be definitive for sure and it also has not been near enough time but it is interesting results so far. Does that mean they are more or less healthy NO NOT AT ALL!!! it just means that in a more naturalistic enclosure I have observed a wider range of behaviour than I observe in a rack. I know that Philippe De Vosjoli in 'The Art of Keeping Snakes' suggests that he has also observed something similar.

There can be benefits to providing climbs and 'sky' cover, and at this point I have not seen any points against providing a climbing opportunity that is beyond they can't climb, or they are really poor climbers and will fall and hurt them selves. I have never encountered a snake that hurt itself from falling in its own enclosure, from unsecured items falling on the snake yes from dropped snakes also yes from falling off a desk or something quite high yes but not from within a enclosure typically seem housing Royal pythons (12-18 inches high)

SECURE CLIMBS ones that WILL NOT FALL. Is very important here, if you cannot secure a climbing structure it should not be there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kitedemon

Egapal I deeply respect you approach and opinions. I believe firmly that debate will increase depth and understanding of a given situation or lesson. I teach in a university as well as manage a mac computer lab. I get where you perspective and how your background influences your statements. (have your re-started it? :cool: )

The original question of slightly arboreal I think we are agreeing has been answered there is ground evidence to support that. Moving on, I don't like using terms like happiness as I am not sure it can be applied. If we say over all heath and stress free I think that can be applied. Do they need to climb no I don't believe so, is there benefit to sacrificing floor space to branches or other *SECURE* climbing items?

The benefits as I see then that if the snake chooses to climb or not it provides over head cover, as anyone whom has dealt with ball pythons many (I think I can say most here) will react quickly to a shadow or object passed over their heads. Most long term captives have shorter lived reactions than young Royals but most will have some reaction. A jerk or stop or a complete withdrawal and coil over the head. Having a static object to provide cover seems to have a calming effect. This is the base principal behind a rack as well a large low over head object.

The second as you mentioned a climbing snake is working muscles and that aids in digestion when not being handled regularly. The regular handling of some snakes causes them stress and that can lead to bigger issues down the road.

The last point I'd make is hard to qualify with any kind of evidence. I have been trying something just out of curiosity, I have 9 Royal Pythons 3 in a rack, one in a screen top tank, one in a side converted tank and 3 in custom snake enclosures. I have been rotating every 8 months or so the 3 from the rack to enclosures and vice versa. Given some time to adjust to the new enclosure (a week or so) they all start to eat and adjust. The interesting part is there seems to be a personality shift. I have been using my most timid and most boisterous and one that is average. All of them seem to alter in the enclosure with lots of cover and stuff to explore. They across the board become less timid (most apparent with my really timid girl) and more attuned to what is going on around them. If I change the water in the enclosure they will often come out sometime that evening and check what is different quite carefully. The rack snakes hide, the only time they make an appearance (looking into the tub) is the night before feeding day and the night of feeding day. The others will often be seen head out of the hide in the late evenings most of the week but for a day or two after feeding day.

It is hard to document that shift and it is not a large enough cross section to be definitive for sure and it also has not been near enough time but it is interesting results so far. Does that mean they are more or less healthy NO NOT AT ALL!!! it just means that in a more naturalistic enclosure I have observed a wider range of behaviour than I observe in a rack. I know that Philippe De Vosjoli in 'The Art of Keeping Snakes' suggests that he has also observed something similar.

There can be benefits to providing climbs and 'sky' cover, and at this point I have not seen any points against providing a climbing opportunity that is beyond they can't climb, or they are really poor climbers and will fall and hurt them selves. I have never encountered a snake that hurt itself from falling in its own enclosure, from unsecured items falling on the snake yes from dropped snakes also yes from falling off a desk or something quite high yes but not from within a enclosure typically seem housing Royal pythons (12-18 inches high)

SECURE CLIMBS ones that WILL NOT FALL. Is very important here, if you cannot secure a climbing structure it should not be there.

---

I agree with almost everything you are saying. I keep my Ball Python and King Snake in more natural enclosures. I fully agree with the idea of providing cover. My only point of contention is that I don't consider small branches that can fit in a 12" to 18" high enclosure to be providing a climbing opportunity. I think we are castrating the word climb. If I saw a snake in the wild climbing over a branch that had fallen out of the tree I would not use that as evidence to support it being semi arboreal. I would just say there is a terrestrial snake exploring. My biggest issue here is the use of the words climb and arboreal. If we are talking climb as in climb a tree and arboreal as in prefers to be in the trees then no no no. If we are talking climb as in my dog climbed onto the bed with me, then sure.

The op has used slightly arboreal. But I see your point, it appears we are on the same page of sorts the real misuse is terrestrial. They are a terrestrial species but as demonstrated by 1000s of photos they often seek higher observation ground (periscoping)

I have a pet theory that adults as they can gain a higher vantage do not feel the need to seek out small platforms that the sub adults do. That may account for the drive to gain elevation, my thought anyway.

I think that the general consensus, and certainly what I defined in my mind. Is that a climb in terms of a captive snake is a branch that allows to reach a elevation to near the top of the enclosure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Egapal

Ball Pythons do not climb trees in the wild

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Egapal

I would just add that its my understanding that in the wild juvenile BP and small males are more likely to climb trees.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Egapal

You fail at science.

---

...and you are failing at consistency. Tell you what - let's do away with the catty little swipes. I always love a good debate and enjoy reading your posts, but I am really not interested in snark right now.

There have been recent papers written on the subject of diet related health issues and some of our own native north american snakes.

I'll save you the trouble of a lengthy Google search and having to fork over $35 to purchase the pdfs of the research and instead focus on what is going on with my animals.

Studies have previously been done on using domestic mice as a prey source for captive omni/carnivores. What these studies have shown is that mice contained cholesterol levels that exceeded other prey sources and that the intake of excessive levels led to eye and tissue abnormalities.

It was also discovered that as the intake of dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids increases, the dietary requirement for vitamin E increases. Researchers concluded that it is important that lipid profiles of feeder mice therefore be known and considered when examining captive animal diets.

As the only person I know keeping and breeding thrasops in the US, I actually forked over a lot of money to have tests done on three of my older thrasops afflicted with both fatty deposits and lipid keratopathy. These were compared to my younger and middle aged animals who are being raised on a natural prey model diet.

What we are finding is that the offspring of animals affected with corneal deposits probably won't develop the disease. At the age of seven, all of my original, unrelated group was developing corneal deposits to some degree or another. At roughly the same age, an unrelated WC group is clear.

The blood cholesterol level of my older pair is off the chart. The blood cholesterol level of my reptile and avian fed +/-7 year olds and my neonates is relatively equal.

So my vet and our local university, are pretty much sure that thrasops have an issue with metabolizing lipids and subsequently processing high fat diets.

In short, they aren't metabolizing them, and corneal opacity and lipid deposits on the body are the end result.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skiploder

...and you are failing at consistency. Tell you what - let's do away with the catty little swipes. I always love a good debate and enjoy reading your posts, but I am really not interested in snark right now.

There have been recent papers written on the subject of diet related health issues and some of our own native north american snakes.

I'll save you the trouble of a lengthy Google search and having to fork over $35 to purchase the pdfs of the research and instead focus on what is going on with my animals.

Studies have previously been done on using domestic mice as a prey source for captive omni/carnivores. What these studies have shown is that mice contained cholesterol levels that exceeded other prey sources and that the intake of excessive levels led to eye and tissue abnormalities.

It was also discovered that as the intake of dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids increases, the dietary requirement for vitamin E increases. Researchers concluded that it is important that lipid profiles of feeder mice therefore be known and considered when examining captive animal diets.

As the only person I know keeping and breeding thrasops in the US, I actually forked over a lot of money to have tests done on three of my older thrasops afflicted with both fatty deposits and lipid keratopathy. These were compared to my younger and middle aged animals who are being raised on a natural prey model diet.

What we are finding is that the offspring of animals affected with corneal deposits probably won't develop the disease. At the age of seven, all of my original, unrelated group was developing corneal deposits to some degree or another. At roughly the same age, an unrelated WC group is clear.

The blood cholesterol level of my older pair is off the chart. The blood cholesterol level of my reptile and avian fed +/-7 year olds and my neonates is relatively equal.

So my vet and our local university, are pretty much sure that thrasops have an issue with metabolizing lipids and subsequently processing high fat diets.

In short, they aren't metabolizing them, and corneal opacity and lipid deposits on the body are the end result.

---

You mis quoted me I said "Ball Pythons do not climb trees in the wild and spend large amounts of time in those trees." They are not ment to be separate statements. They should be taken as one. My point was that they do climb opportunistically not as a rule. I fail to see an issue with my consistancy. Your last post was much better from a science stand point. It still tells us nothing about BPs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Egapal

You mis quoted me I said "Ball Pythons do not climb trees in the wild and spend large amounts of time in those trees." They are not ment to be separate statements. They should be taken as one. My point was that they do climb opportunistically not as a rule. I fail to see an issue with my consistancy. Your last post was much better from a science stand point. It still tells us nothing about BPs.

---

You asked questions about thrasops - I expanded on what was going with my snakes.

As for ball pythons and an all-rodent diet - your guess is as good as mine.

There is a mountain of research out there that first covers normal blood panels form different species and how lipids change from a recently consumed meal up to two months into a fast.

There is also enough evidence out there on the dietary content of mice and rats that shows that their lipid levels may exceed those of avian, amphibian and reptilian prey. They is also evidence to show that these elevated levels result in systemic disease in snakes.

I've never seen any research on the long term effects of balls and I have no idea what their feeding + 56 days fast lipid panels look like. The fact that some people have successfully fed them an all rodent diet for decades would leave me to believe that they can metabolize the additional lipids in rodent prey fairly effectively.

Those quotes were taken from two separate posts a page or so apart.. It seemed to me that you were pretty adamant that they don't climb, and then relented when confronted with the study. If that wasn't the case, then so be it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kitedemon

Egapal I deeply respect you approach and opinions. I believe firmly that debate will increase depth and understanding of a given situation or lesson. I teach in a university as well as manage a mac computer lab. I get where you perspective and how your background influences your statements. (have your re-started it? :cool: )

The original question of slightly arboreal I think we are agreeing has been answered there is ground evidence to support that. Moving on, I don't like using terms like happiness as I am not sure it can be applied. If we say over all heath and stress free I think that can be applied. Do they need to climb no I don't believe so, is there benefit to sacrificing floor space to branches or other *SECURE* climbing items?

The benefits as I see then that if the snake chooses to climb or not it provides over head cover, as anyone whom has dealt with ball pythons many (I think I can say most here) will react quickly to a shadow or object passed over their heads. Most long term captives have shorter lived reactions than young Royals but most will have some reaction. A jerk or stop or a complete withdrawal and coil over the head. Having a static object to provide cover seems to have a calming effect. This is the base principal behind a rack as well a large low over head object.

The second as you mentioned a climbing snake is working muscles and that aids in digestion when not being handled regularly. The regular handling of some snakes causes them stress and that can lead to bigger issues down the road.

The last point I'd make is hard to qualify with any kind of evidence. I have been trying something just out of curiosity, I have 9 Royal Pythons 3 in a rack, one in a screen top tank, one in a side converted tank and 3 in custom snake enclosures. I have been rotating every 8 months or so the 3 from the rack to enclosures and vice versa. Given some time to adjust to the new enclosure (a week or so) they all start to eat and adjust. The interesting part is there seems to be a personality shift. I have been using my most timid and most boisterous and one that is average. All of them seem to alter in the enclosure with lots of cover and stuff to explore. They across the board become less timid (most apparent with my really timid girl) and more attuned to what is going on around them. If I change the water in the enclosure they will often come out sometime that evening and check what is different quite carefully. The rack snakes hide, the only time they make an appearance (looking into the tub) is the night before feeding day and the night of feeding day. The others will often be seen head out of the hide in the late evenings most of the week but for a day or two after feeding day.

It is hard to document that shift and it is not a large enough cross section to be definitive for sure and it also has not been near enough time but it is interesting results so far. Does that mean they are more or less healthy NO NOT AT ALL!!! it just means that in a more naturalistic enclosure I have observed a wider range of behaviour than I observe in a rack. I know that Philippe De Vosjoli in 'The Art of Keeping Snakes' suggests that he has also observed something similar.

There can be benefits to providing climbs and 'sky' cover, and at this point I have not seen any points against providing a climbing opportunity that is beyond they can't climb, or they are really poor climbers and will fall and hurt them selves. I have never encountered a snake that hurt itself from falling in its own enclosure, from unsecured items falling on the snake yes from dropped snakes also yes from falling off a desk or something quite high yes but not from within a enclosure typically seem housing Royal pythons (12-18 inches high)

SECURE CLIMBS ones that WILL NOT FALL. Is very important here, if you cannot secure a climbing structure it should not be there.

---

As a person who keeps some very arboreal snakes - I can safely say that they also fall.

They are quite funny when mine do one in particular seems to think he can balance on the top edge of the thermometer probe. He is 1800 gm and as big around as my wrist... when he fails he look around to see if anyone is laughing at him... again. Ok not quite but if feels that way sometimes.

Interesting debate, I really wish there was more studies being done they are a huge hobby snakes but biologists don't seem very interested. They either want to study the flashy species or the rare ones. There is so much knowledge on the captivity end but very little on the wild end. Maybe I need to find a biologist to team up with and write a grant proposal or two... :rolleyes: