If it's ok to...

Thats not his point

His point is to bash people for breeding a morph of these snakes that has a wobble

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

I have seen quite a few major wobbles being sold for next to nothing (Like around $100). Where is the market for them?

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

And if anything, loopy spiders would help spread the word to people who are unaware of the spider wobble.

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:rolleye2: Are you seriously getting into breeding because with that kind of logic and statement it's gonna be hard for anyone to take you seriously :rolleyes:

People are aware of wobble is not a secret and if they are not all I can say is that before purchasing an animal (any animal) you do some research prior to acquiring the said animal.

If there are morphs that make YOU uncomfortable and that you do not wish to work with, than it’s simple don’t buy them, and don’t breed them.

Spiders are not for everyone just like some other morphs are not for everyone either.

There is a morph that I chose not to work due to issues as well however the difference is that unlike you I do not look down on people who chose to do so that specific morph is just not for me.

The bottom line as a buyer or future breeder (no idea what your level is) is to be knowledgeable about what you plan on buying and/or breeding and decide if that animal is right for YOU.

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

Well seriously, it could be marketed.

Say i sell my very own line of "loop de loop" ball pythons to pet shops and people buy in. People could possibly like that quirky behavior.

So if its apparently ok to breed spiders despite the wobble, then would that be ok to do?

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Sorry. Should have quoted. But, I was finding a number of replies saying there could be a market for them.

Personally I'm not a fan of spiders, however if I were to get one it would be from a reputable dealer, it would probably be a designer morph, and I'd be looking for minimum wobble. Any offspring with minimum wobble would get kept for breeding/sold, the ones with more wobble would just get kept as my own pets. The reason would be to breed for minimum wobble, only release minimum wobble, and hope that in a few generations the wobble would get taken out.

Its like Orange Ghosts and the kinking, it's the reason I wouldnt want to work with them, but from a reputable dealer and from a line with minimal kinking, yeah maybe, if it were a designer morph.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Its like Orange Ghosts and the kinking, it's the reason I wouldnt want to work with them, but from a reputable dealer and from a line with minimal kinking, yeah maybe, if it were a designer morph.

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I think you mean caramels. Ghosts do not have kinking problems.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Personally I'm not a fan of spiders, however if I were to get one it would be from a reputable dealer, it would probably be a designer morph, and I'd be looking for minimum wobble. Any offspring with minimum wobble would get kept for breeding/sold, the ones with more wobble would just get kept as my own pets. The reason would be to breed for minimum wobble, only release minimum wobble, and hope that in a few generations the wobble would get taken out.

Its like Orange Ghosts and the kinking, it's the reason I wouldnt want to work with them, but from a reputable dealer and from a line with minimal kinking, yeah maybe, if it were a designer morph.

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Yes, but as of right now, we are not 100% certain either way on how the wobble is tied to the spider gene. All we DO know is that every single spider has a wobble of some degree and it seems random where on the scale it sits. If what is causing the wobble is tied to the spider gene, you will never breed it out of the morph.

Right, right. I always mix the two up, thanks. Yeah the Caramels.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

Yes, but as of right now, we are not 100% certain either way on how the wobble is tied to the spider gene. All we DO know is that every single spider has a wobble of some degree and it seems random where on the scale it sits. If what is causing the wobble is tied to the spider gene, you will never breed it out of the morph.

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By only selectively breeding the animals with the least wobble, whether it is the gene itself or not, at least in time it may prove not to be random, and it wouldnt much matter if the only ones you bred/sold had little wobble. It would be artificial selection, maybe not culling the ones with high wobble, but definitely not letting them breed.

I thought I made a post on this yesterday, but apparently it didn't go through.

A scant few spiders are born as 'train wrecks'--the wobble is so bad they have difficulties that prevent them from living normally. They can usually be assisted--you have to put the food in their mouth, for example, because they are too uncoordinated to find it on their own.
"Train wreck' spiders are fairly rare. Most spiders are perfectly capable of eating, breeding, and living normal lives, and they appear to be perfectly happy to do so. They show no signs of stress from their condition.

So, why not breed for increased wobble? Because increased wobble results in a snake that cannot care for itself--a 'train wreck'. Obviously you do not deliberately select for an animal like that. You don't breed your Persians with faces so short they can't breathe, and you don't breed your miniature horses with legs so short they can't bend at the knee. Extremes can be BAD for the animal.

People ARE attempting, in a fairly relaxed fashion, to select for reduced wobble in spiders. There is no way of knowing whether or not this will be successful in the long run. It's possible that selective breeding could eliminate or reduce the incidence of severe wobble over time, we'll just have to wait and see.

I know you're were just trying to instigate, but I figured I would give you a rational reason why you shouldn't be breeding for more wobble in spiders (if it were even possible to do so, which is definitely not certain).

As for the spider mutation itself...it has a quirk. No one is certain whether the quirk is the result of a neurological problem, or an inner ear problem.

Examples of animals that are commonly bred for odd traits like this include waltzing mice, and fainting goats.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

So, why not breed for increased wobble? Because increased wobble results in a snake that cannot care for itself--a 'train wreck'. Obviously you do not deliberately select for an animal like that. You don't breed your Persians with faces so short they can't breathe, and you don't breed your miniature horses with legs so short they can't bend at the knee. Extremes can be BAD for the animal.

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The OP was trying to "provoke thought" which online often gets referred to as trolling (it really depends on how you look at it). From what I've glanced at though the topic the OP wouldnt want to have/breed a spider because of the wobble, and this "provoking of thought" seems to be targeted at people who do breed spiders and seemingly trying to convince them away from it.

So the topic isnt seriously suggesting that people breed for wobble, but trying to question the logic behind breeding an animal with a known issue.

Ultimately the reason people do work with them is because we like the way they look and the wobble doesnt often lead to some sort of extreme issue in the animal. The reason some people wont work with them is because they dont want to deal with the known issue.

EDIT
My guess is that most people ask themselves if they really should work ith certain animals before they do. I know I've run this through my head for Caramels (which failed, especially now that ultramels are around), spiders, and womas (as it turns out it's probably just the HG line that has the ethical conundrum). I think everyone who has any intent on breeding an animal questions whether or not they should do it (well at least those of us actually capable of higher level reasoning would), and certain cases (spiders/hg womas/caramels) require a bit more thought. But ultimately after thinking it through some people come to one side or another on it, and I think a lot of people love the look of spiders and as such wouldnt give up on them.

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

My only experience is a natural critical thinking mindset, i guess.
As a first generation immigrant, we were always taught to question someone intent when they are taking your money, thats all. :)

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You're not questioning intent here, as there is clearly no malicious intent involved with Spider breeding--you're just downing on people who breed Spiders in an unnecessary, button-pushing kind of way. If you were staying open minded you'd respond to some of the more well presented arguments or responses like WingedWolfPsion's. Your choice to avoid responding to her, or even to myself, makes it seem like you're doing so because it allows you to banter more.

Again, no one would have a problem with you posting, "Hey, it seems like the Spider trait is plagued by wobble. Isn't it not worth it to breed them if we know they will have some genetic flaw? It seems cruel to me." Instead, you choose to present your argument as a joke, or in a facetious manner.

I can't accept that you are simply questioning intent, as it's clear that that isn't your true goal here. Just for perspective, I have never bred Spiders, so any disagreement I have here is not fueled by some want to continue making money on the morph. I also don't understand how you are unable to discern between breeding Spiders under normal circumstances, which would produce in an outstanding percentage of cases completely happy, functional snakes, and line breeding for train-wreck wobbles, which would lead to an outstanding number of unhappy, dysfunctional snakes. If it were possible to predict, which others with MUCH more experience than you have established it is not, it would clearly be wrong to breed to enhance or create a deleterious genetic defect. But, as it has been established, the wobble associated with the Spider mutation in a great majority of cases is in no way a devastating or deleterious genetic defect. Like I've already stated in a previously ignored post, stress kills reptiles. If Spiders with slight or moderate wobbles, even those with extreme wobbles in certain cases were stressed, they would be dying premature deaths. If a great majority of Spiders can eat, breed, and grow stress-free, there doesn't seem to be much meat behind looking down on those who choose to do so. If you want to point out an issue you have, and want people to take you and your opinion seriously, it would help if you presented your opinion in a mature, honest, and professional way. Otherwise, as has been the case so far in your thread, it just seems like you're being malicious and negatively provocative.

Cheers,
-Matt