» Site Navigation
0 members and 710 guests
No Members online
Most users ever online was 47,180, 07-16-2025 at 05:30 PM.
» Today's Birthdays
» Stats
Members: 75,905
Threads: 249,105
Posts: 2,572,113
Top Poster: JLC (31,651)
|
-
Re: Toxic Plastic--What A Gas!
First of all I didn't include plastic bin discussions for breeders. Mainly cause I don't see a viable alternative.
Secondly: For an owner of a privately owned snake or two making chavelier remarks...such as "You have to die of something".....I consider just fine for your own personal 'health'. But if you've chosen to be the guardian of another life and you purposely take that attitute...........Well I don't need to say how that comes off.
Thirdly: It seems to me that the no one is paying a bit of attention to what the more experienced members here are posting about plastics as well that supports my view. WHY???
Fourthly: Tanks can be hard to work with but not impossible. Too bad something custom can't be made for breeders to use in racks. With all the snake people around, there would be a market for it. Maybe something in stainless steel with a viewing window and a matching top with the appropriate holes for ventilation.
-
Re: Toxic Plastic--What A Gas!
[QUOTE= You know what would be a good poll to start? How many people's snakes have died due to plastic tubs! LOL[/QUOTE]
I doubt many people would have correlated the death of their snake to their choice of habitat. But I do have one I'm sure you won't like either....:colbert:
-
Re: Toxic Plastic--What A Gas!
It seems to me there is quite a lot of things in this thread. A habitat 'debate' argument really it is a lifestyle choice in my opinion and I won't judge yours if you don't mine. Then there is a plastic discussion which has some merit. I don't care if you use tubs tanks or enclosures as long as you are doing your best to provide correct environmental controls and your keep your animals healthy not my concern.
Plastic I have read a few studies they exist. Can stats be 100% trusted... no. I did a stats class years ago and it was how to manipulate numbers. What I do know is BPA containing plastics were recalled by two huge retailers. How much did they spend to shift. A LOT! Canada is moving to BAN the use of BPA plastic for baby bottles.
Currently HDPE is the accepted alternative for human food. The good news there are very few BPA plastics used in large size tubs. Most are HDPE, sterilite, really useful, and KIS. they are the only ones I have here. Personally I care way too much about my snakes welfare to not check what plastic is used for my snakes home. If there is a chance that BPA could harm my snake I don't want him living in it. I use a vision enclosure for mine and guess what it is made of plastic it isn't just tubs. The results of the studies on bpa are not all in yet but it is not looking as dire as it was 2 years ago. They so far are guarded.
My PERSONAL bottom line, I am responsible for the life and health for the animals in my care and I take that seriously, I am sure that if you are reading this you do too. I am checking the plastics because there is a CHANCE that there MIGHT be so health impact. For MYSELF this is my responsibility and I take that seriously. I actually don't know what a vision cage is made from I believe it is PE or HDPE but if anyone knows PLEASE let me know.
Alex
www.bisphenol-a.org
p://www.chemicalsubstanceschimiques.gc.ca/challenge-defi/batch-lot-2/bisphenol-a/res-rech-eng.php
http://www.ec.gc.ca/ceparegistry/doc...ba/tdm-toc.cfm
http://www.chemicalsubstanceschimiqu...enol-a-eng.php
-
Re: Toxic Plastic--What A Gas!
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitedemon
It seems to me there is quite a lot of things in this thread. A habitat 'debate' argument really it is a lifestyle choice in my opinion and I won't judge yours if you don't mine. Then there is a plastic discussion which has some merit. I don't care if you use tubs tanks or enclosures as long as you are doing your best to provide correct environmental controls and your keep your animals healthy not my concern.
Plastic I have read a few studies they exist. Can stats be 100% trusted... no. I did a stats class years ago and it was how to manipulate numbers. What I do know is BPA containing plastics were recalled by two huge retailers. How much did they spend to shift. A LOT! Canada is moving to BAN the use of BPA plastic for baby bottles.
Currently HDPE is the accepted alternative for human food. The good news there are very few BPA plastics used in large size tubs. Most are HDPE, sterilite, really useful, and KIS. they are the only ones I have here. Personally I care way too much about my snakes welfare to not check what plastic is used for my snakes home. If there is a chance that BPA could harm my snake I don't want him living in it. I use a vision enclosure for mine and guess what it is made of plastic it isn't just tubs. The results of the studies on bpa are not all in yet but it is not looking as dire as it was 2 years ago. They so far are guarded.
My PERSONAL bottom line, I am responsible for the life and health for the animals in my care and I take that seriously, I am sure that if you are reading this you do too. I am checking the plastics because there is a CHANCE that there MIGHT be so health impact. For MYSELF this is my responsibility and I take that seriously. I actually don't know what a vision cage is made from I believe it is PE or HDPE but if anyone knows PLEASE let me know.
Alex
www.bisphenol-a.org
p://www.chemicalsubstanceschimiques.gc.ca/challenge-defi/batch-lot-2/bisphenol-a/res-rech-eng.php
http://www.ec.gc.ca/ceparegistry/doc...ba/tdm-toc.cfm
http://www.chemicalsubstanceschimiqu...enol-a-eng.php
so your saying that as long as we use tubs made with plastics like that in sterilite (which most of us do) we wont have to worry about pvc toxins?
-
Re: Toxic Plastic--What A Gas!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsinoe
First of all I didn't include plastic bin discussions for breeders. Mainly cause I don't see a viable alternative.
It's not just because they have no other alternative. I'm sure that if ball pythons hated plastic bins and their health was jeopardized by them (excluding the gas thing at this point... I feel as though all points possible have been made about it, and I only used recycled, enviornment friendly bins anywho) all of their breeder and keeper bp's would be in tanks. All you have to do is ask them. The health of their snakes come first, not just the convenience it provides the breeder. :oops:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsinoe
Secondly: For an owner of a privately owned snake or two making chavelier remarks...such as "You have to die of something".....I consider just fine for your own personal 'health'. But if you've chosen to be the guardian of another life and you purposely take that attitute...........Well I don't need to say how that comes off.
I'm sure they were just being sarcastic as they probably didn't agree with what your argument was. No need to agitate even more gravel. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsinoe
Thirdly: It seems to me that the no one is paying a bit of attention to what the more experienced members here are posting about plastics as well that supports my view. WHY???
It seems that almost everyone who has agreed that plastics can be harmful also state that the studies that have been done on those plastics aren't 100% reliable in one way or another -- for both sides of the argument. There are certain plastics that are indeed harmful, and there are certain plastics that are only harmful when melted or burned. There are also plastics that are relatively safe, and I'm sure that 99% of all of the plastic bin wielding snake owners out there only use plastics that will not bring any harm upon their snakes. And like stated earlier (though I don't remember by who), if you don't like either glass OR plastic, you can always get a custom snake storage tank built.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsinoe
Fourthly: Tanks can be hard to work with but not impossible. Too bad something custom can't be made for breeders to use in racks. With all the snake people around, there would be a market for it. Maybe something in stainless steel with a viewing window and a matching top with the appropriate holes for ventilation.
While I am leaning on the plastic side of things, only because I do have bins, if a tank is better for you then fine. No one's going to kick your door in and call you a horrible person because you have your snake in a tank. :P Do right by the snake, not by the owner!
Metals are not ideal for snakes, as they can steal body heat, get too hot and cause burns, and can basically act as an "oven," and cause some unwanted side effects on your snake. There's always wood and a screen top, but that's going right back to custom built.
Let's just all agree to dissagree. ;)
-
Re: Toxic Plastic--What A Gas!
Alright I will do my best here.
I think you need to look at what has first priority in terms of your snakes health. The first and most important thing you can give your ball python is a proper temperature gradient. If you don't provide a proper thermal gradient your snake will die.
Of second most importance is security. If a ball python does not feel safe it will not eat. There are snakes that will starve themselves to death.
Next would be a clean source for healthy feeders. and so on and so on..
Now, 90% of the temperature and security problems I see are because people use these large naturalistic tank setup for ball pythons. If you can't get your temps right, that is a serious problem! That alone will jeopardize the life of your animal. If moving them to a tub setup fixes your temperature problem and you are willing to switch to tubs, then go for that.
Tubs fix the first and most important parts of husbandry that most everyone has problems with when they use glass tanks. I would say that every person who uses tanks for ball pythons has had some issue with husbandry at some point.
Now, plastic might some how be toxic to us and our pets. I honestly have not seen a shred of evidence to support that the plastic tubs I use have harmful effects on my snakes. I doubt anyone who uses plastic tubs for their animals have seen any kind of correlation between this harmful plastic and sickness in their animals. Why? Because tubs help keep temperature consistent, they keep humidity up, they make our animals feel safe.
In short, this supposed toxicity of plastic is not the first thing you should be worrying about when it comes to the well being of your animal. It is proper husbandry. Proper husbandry will always come first.
Now if they somehow prove that ALL plastic will kill my animals, then I will stop using it. The fact is, it doesn't harm them at all. It doesn't give off fumes, or make them sick in anyway. All of my snakes are 100% healthy because I moved them to tubs.
Now, I am not saying that you absolutely need to use tubs, tanks can work just fine! I just have a problem with you saying that tubs are HARMFUL to my animals which they obviously are not.
:/ Don't knock it until you try it.
-
Re: Toxic Plastic--What A Gas!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaorte
:/ Don't knock it until you try it.
Sums up everything. :D
-
Re: Toxic Plastic--What A Gas!
Eugene Bessette has snakes older than most of the people on this board that still produce... kept in tubs... just sayin..
-
Re: Toxic Plastic--What A Gas!
771subliminal "so your saying that as long as we use tubs made with plastics like that in sterilite (which most of us do) we wont have to worry about pvc toxins?"
looks like from the results so far most of the studies I have looked at so far (there are quite a few folks) are still in year 2 of 5 so the results are not final. It looks like Most larger tubs are likely not BPA containing. Lexan seems to be the biggest problem and few (if any?) tubs are lexan. However some drop down doors on customs might be. To my mind a little bit of bpa plastic is such a small amount that it is likely ok (say a plastic plant) but I would be concerned by the whole enclosure out gassing.
I know that chemical impact is based on body weight. I know that the amounts of out gassing from plastic are small. Logic says that smaller snakes should effected more than larger. I also know that sudden death occurs in many snakes, and is not well understood. Could toxic out gassing play a part? I don't know. I know I will avoid Plastic codes 3, 6, 7. All the tubs I can find at home are mostly 5 and listed as safer. Better safe than sorry.
A
-
Re: Toxic Plastic--What A Gas!
Hi,
I appologise in advance for only dealing with some of the points raised but quite a lot of this is so far outside of my knowledge I couldn't even speculate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion
Testing on rats is still being conducted--of course these chemicals have not yet been tested on reptiles to see what effects they're having.
has it been tested on birds do you know?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion
However, if we extrapolate from rat studies,......
Sadly we really can't - mammalian and reptile biology simply are not that close.
There are many chemicals in mammals that seem to have no effect on reptiles - or have a beneficial effect in mammals but toxic effects in reptiles. The pain killers in the antibacterial creams we use for minor cuts and scrapes comes to mind for example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion
...... we would expect to see feminized males and increased birth defects. We do see those in ball python clutches--but we began breeding these animals in captivity after these plastics began to be used, so we have no 'clean' examples to study. Are these cases due to the plastics we use? If the rat studies can be extrapolated, then it would seem logical that at least some of them are.
I'm sorry but this is so full of errors it's utterly invalid.
Cite me one example of a feminised male ball python. In fact, define a feminised ball python by indicators ( physical or behavioural ) or genetic anomalies. The last one could be difficult since we have not mapped the genome to know what is normal.
Show me where the incidence of birth defects is larger (statistically per clutch ) among breeders using plastic housing and those using glass. Or, indeed, show me any evidence that birth defects per clutch are increasing at all.
Every single animal coming in from Africa is a clean sample - and we know how large that number is.
Your last sentence is flawed as it is basing an assumption on a guess. To early man looking up and seeing the stars revolve in the sky it was logical to infer that the universe revolved around the earth. And that was based on verifiable empirical evidence - every time they looked up in fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion
Endocrine disruption isn't a fantasy. These chemicals have very real effects on fetal development. These effects aren't questionable at all--the argument has been made that just because they effect rats doesn't mean they'll effect other animals. While a valid complaint in a minor way, we can already see evidence of endocrine disruption occurring in other species, including ours, so it would seem more logical to error on the side of caution while we wait for that confirmation.
In mammals - which have an ongoing symbiotic relationship with the developing fetus and pass many chemicals between them for an extended time. We are mammals so the mention that they effect us is largely irrelevant.
Hence my question about birds - while still being different their reproduvtive method may be similar enough to measure transfer of toxins between mother and fetus during egg formation.
The point of non-compatability between animals with such different metabolism and chemistry is not minor at all. They can target toxins that will only kill certain insects while haveing no effect on others and yet you feel that these chemicals will behave exactly the same between mammals and reptiles?
Caution is a fine thing - but it must be guided by facts not folklore or supposition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion
Again not a peer reviewed scientific journal but a website with an agenda - but I will try to find time to read it later and get back to you on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion
It's important to understand that these chemicals feminize males and can even masculinize females. So, are they responsible for 'lazy males'? I'm sure other things could cause that as well...but these chemicals most certainly can. I guess I'm missing how this is a 'reach'.
I'm not sure how accurate breeding behaviour can be as an indicator without further information on whether it is biologically or environmentally based. Possibly some measure of hormone levels against a control group?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion
Human fertility is also being affected noticeably. While humans have always been a pretty fecund species, one must admit that a decline in humans' actual ABILITY to reproduce isn't something to be dismissed lightly.
http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi...ract/17/6/1437
An intresting point indeed - especially in a world with more humans on it than ever before and, indeed facing a massive overpopulation problem. But again - we are mammals so any effect these chemicals (specifically ) could be having on us is still not evidence for anything outside the mammal group.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion
They also used to run and play outside and were unlikely to be able to consume quite the extent of candy or unhealthy food as they do now. The amount of processed food with added salt and sugar were nowhere near as common as a large part of the diet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion
If it affects rats and humans, why not ball pythons? Alligators have responded to different endocrine disruptors--most famously, in Lake Apopka. Judging by alligator reactions, reptiles can be expected to show the same signs that mammals do when exposed to low levels of endocrine disrupting chemicals of other types.
You answered your own question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion
I'm not saying we should stop using these PVC racks--perhaps the convenience, the ease of keeping things sanitary, and the light weight all contribute to making it worth the problems they may cause--and as I said, it's not as though we can provide them with an environment that's free of endocrine disrupting chemicals anyhow. We can't...not anymore. So we might as well make the best of it.
The right conclusion for the wrong reason in my book. :gj:
dr del
|
