Long rant... school budget cuts.

Apples to oranges.

All of you who are complaining about how much we spend on the military versus how much we are spending on education are comparing apples to oranges.

The federal government funds the military - states fund education. Even if the federal government stopped funding the military, that money would not make it into the education system so quit your whining about military spending. Not all of us live in your special fantasy world where China, Russia, Iran and North Korea will stop hating us if we get out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Do some of us a favor before you go making bold statements about defense spending and education spending - figure out which is a federal and which is a state responsibility. It makes for a much more informed argument.

We've covered this ground before. While funding education should be a priority it should be a LOCAL and STATE priority according to the constitution. Some of you knuckleheads think that the only way out of our education and health care messes is at the teat of Uncle Sugar......

Oh and as old WingedWolf and I have established before, total government (State and Federal) spending on education is greater than defense - fact. Live with it and stop propagating bull crap for the sake of making a pointless point. Yes -several socialist and communist websites skew this data by presenting only the Federal spending - but as we have now established - that is an intellectually dishonest argument.

We need to fix the education system as badly as we need to fix the health care system - both are dysfunctional and both are, in large part, propagating their own problems. The problem is that the education system has not gotten better no matter how much money we've spent on it. The problem is waste and making sure the money spent on education makes it to the class room and not the administrative offices.

Example: I readily give at school fundraisers when I am guaranteed that this money goes directly to maintaining programs (like the library or the computer lab) or makes it directly to the classroom. I refuse to give another freaking penny to the California State education system until the schools are in better shape than the District offices.

Yes, our local schools have dilapidated equipment, shoddy facilities and are understaffed. On the other hand, the local District offices are nice, new and shiny - with new computers, copy machines and self-flushing toilets.

In California we have a problem. Entitlements are so high that infrastructure and education are going to take a massive hit. Until the citizens of the Republik of Kalifornia wake up to the fact that people like Lolo76 may lose their job at the expense of social experiments and administrative waste, things will get a lot worse before they get better.

Next year my kids will be going to private school. For a tad more than my tax dollars are currently being outlaid for public education - they will got to a school with a staffed library, sports curricula, a science and computer lab and each kid gets a laptop. Ask yourselves this: how can a private school, for almost the same amount of money per student, achieve this?

Laura - I hope everything turns out the best for you. We have met and I think that the kids in your District are going to miss out on having some one as intelligent, passionate and literary (for lack of a better word) helping to fuel their passion for literature. I really hope that their loss will be someone else's gain.

Well, that was a dig, yes--those things happen when you invade another country, no matter how good your reasons seem to be. Country gets invaded, kids get blown up. It's inevitable. Doesn't matter who, or what country. I do generally think the US should either poo or get off the pot--if we're going over to some other country to smack someone down, it should be without the kid gloves--full force with everything we've got, and over in a week. (If we went full force, it WOULD be over in a week). We'd get a terrible reputation, but our rep's not that great anyhow. This piddling around with a few dozen troops here and there is a waste of time, money, and lives.

As for the fancy equipment--the vast bulk of it's NOT EVEN BEING USED. It's in development for 10 years, and many a handful of guys ever get to use it, and it never winds up in the field. And most of it's geared toward putting people in places that people don't even have to go anymore.
And yes, the government does need to say "I'm sorry, that's too expensive, we're going to look for a contract with someone else if you don't lower your prices to something less than the cost of the Hubble Space Telescope".

The point is, EDUCATION IS JUST AS VALUABLE AS DEFENSE. It should have equal funding. If it did, the military could buy much fancier weapons for less money, because there would be plenty of people competing to build fancy weapons. Education does that.
Equal FEDERAL funding. The States clearly cannot afford it. Good education IS expensive. Yes, the system needs to be overhauled as well. All government-run systems appear to be increasingly corrupt.

Our founding fathers predicted that it would happen, so why is everyone so surprised?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Well, that was a dig, yes--those things happen when you invade another country, no matter how good your reasons seem to be. Country gets invaded, kids get blown up. It's inevitable. Doesn't matter who, or what country. I do generally think the US should either poo or get off the pot--if we're going over to some other country to smack someone down, it should be without the kid gloves--full force with everything we've got, and over in a week. (If we went full force, it WOULD be over in a week). We'd get a terrible reputation, but our rep's not that great anyhow. This piddling around with a few dozen troops here and there is a waste of time, money, and lives.

I totally agree with you on this. But we keep trying to fight a politically correct war with ppl that don't play like that.

As for the fancy equipment--the vast bulk of it's NOT EVEN BEING USED. It's in development for 10 years, and many a handful of guys ever get to use it, and it never winds up in the field. And most of it's geared toward putting people in places that people don't even have to go anymore.
And yes, the government does need to say "I'm sorry, that's too expensive, we're going to look for a contract with someone else if you don't lower your prices to something less than the cost of the Hubble Space Telescope".

I don't agree that this is totally true. Typically in the military things have to go through a five year testing plan. Unless it is for theater and then it is put through much more quickly. And that is great to say that is too expensive...but in reality...it is not cheaper anywhere else. Look the overhead alone that these companies have is crazy. Just for some of the clearances for employees is over 100K. That is why allot of the time they are looking for ppl with existing clearances. That isn't saying anything about employing high level engineers that can design and create these systems. Its not free and there is always another company that will pay more.

The point is, EDUCATION IS JUST AS VALUABLE AS DEFENSE. It should have equal funding. If it did, the military could buy much fancier weapons for less money, because there would be plenty of people competing to build fancy weapons. Education does that.
Equal FEDERAL funding. The States clearly cannot afford it. Good education IS expensive. Yes, the system needs to be overhauled as well. All government-run systems appear to be increasingly corrupt.


Again to agree with skiploader....you can throw all the money in the world at the education system....doesn't mean it is going to get better. I agree.....go down and take a look at your local district school offices.....they are usually very nice compared to the schools.

Our founding fathers predicted that it would happen, so why is everyone so surprised?

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So, how does this get fixed?

I'm curious to hear ideas.


You know, I've put a lot of thought into this. I doubt there is a way to fix our education system. It's too mired in bureaucracy.

Okay, I wrote a response but I deleted all but the following... I don't think me arguing with you guys about your military is productive lol.

I don't have all the facts and I won't claim to. My point was simple: The United States is the wealthiest country in the world. The money is there; there is just no excuse for a dismal school system. I know you guys and your army is like us and hockey; it's part of the culture and we're darn proud of it. But to me, allowing something as fundamental as an education system to decay while something like the military flourishes... It seems like priorities have gotten confused.

If anyone wants to flame me for my views on American military spending I'd be glad to go toe to toe on it, but lets do it in a thread about that, rather than in Lolo's thread. I apoligize for derailing the thread with my comment, the implications of which I did not consider.

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Originally Posted by singingtothewheat

So, how does this get fixed?

I'm curious to hear ideas.


You know, I've put a lot of thought into this. I doubt there is a way to fix our education system. It's too mired in bureaucracy.

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Believe it or not, one of the fixes really just does just come down to money.

It's proven in theory and in practice.

My four years in high school, not a single proposed piece of local legislature for school funding was voted down. I lived in a fairly affluent suburb in Texas. Pretty much all the funding came directly from property taxes.

My high school was recognized in my senior year as being the "best" public school academically in the entire state. We had a 99% graduation rate, and a 75-80% secondary education attendance rate.

The biggest difference between that school district and most other school districts is that we had well payed teachers, well-funded classes and supplies, well-funded arts and sports programs.. I could go on.

Give more money to the system, and you get better tools, better teachers, and more motivation for students.

There are lots of other little things that could be done, but the little things are surprisingly more difficult to change on the whole.

Edit:

To skiploader's complaint about money, as it relates to my public school experience.

All the legislature that was passed with regards to my school districts' funding were specific in what they were funding.. the new concert hall, chem lab etc. Skip is right that we have to make sure that money is going to do something useful.

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Originally Posted by singingtothewheat

So, how does this get fixed?

I'm curious to hear ideas.


You know, I've put a lot of thought into this. I doubt there is a way to fix our education system. It's too mired in bureaucracy.

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It doesn't.

We haven't even touched on the amount of unfunded (California anyway) teacher retirement pensions that are going to suck up more tax dollars ($43 billion). Other States have similar problems.

One way is to privatize the education system. Back out the tax dollars you pay on education (54% of the general fund in my state) or make the money spent on education pre-tax dollars and therefore a deduction applied to your taxable income.

Studies have shown that private school costs about 1/3 less (on average) than public school - but this does not take into account special needs kids.

The problem is that the infrastructure is not there for a immediate dissolution of the public education system. In the meantime - allow people who send their kids to private schools to claim that money as a deduction on their state tax return.

Or we could go the way of the voucher system..........Sweden and Hong Kong are two countries who have implemented this system with success. Problem is that the Public School Unions and the NEA are very powerful and politically influential and repeatedly block any attempts at either implementing a voucher system or reforming the public education system.

These are also the same unions who are draining State coffers for unsustainable pension packages. One wonders why they would be afraid of some private competition.........

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

Believe it or not, one of the fixes really just does just come down to money.

It's proven in theory and in practice.

My four years in high school, not a single proposed piece of local legislature for school funding was voted down. I lived in a fairly affluent suburb in Texas. Pretty much all the funding came directly from property taxes.

My high school was recognized in my senior year as being the "best" public school academically in the entire state. We had a 99% graduation rate, and a 75-80% secondary education attendance rate.

The biggest difference between that school district and most other school districts is that we had well payed teachers, well-funded classes and supplies, well-funded arts and sports programs.. I could go on.

Give more money to the system, and you get better tools, better teachers, and more motivation for students.

There are lots of other little things that could be done, but the little things are surprisingly more difficult to change on the whole.

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California pays it's teachers more than any other state in the union and is ranked at or near the bottom in efficacy of education.

What's the use of throwing more money at the problem when only a percentage of it reaches the students? Do you have any idea how much of every dollar spent on education makes it to the classroom and the kids?

The only way to circumvent that is to target where the money goes - as apparently is the case in your District. In California, this is routinely blocked by the Unions. The Unions are actively throwing up roadblocks to account for the effective use of the monies collected.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

California pays it's teachers more than any other state in the union and is ranked at or near the bottom in efficacy of education.

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Cost of living in California is through the roof.. I think that offsets any strict dollar for dollar salary comparison. That's where comparisons get mucky.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

In California, this is routinely blocked by the Unions. The Unions are actively throwing up roadblocks to account for the effective use of the monies collected.

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That really sucks.

I hate Unions.

A friend of mine likes to claim that eventually all systems deliver the exact opposite of what the original design was intended to deliver. I think that Unions fit that quite well.