y are these Black eyed Leucistics not all white?

FWIW, I have also talked to a breeder who has produced BEL's from Phantom x Phantom and told that they got Super Phantoms and BEL's in the same clutch.

Anyone working on the axanthic version? Could be a solution.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

For instance if Phantom X Phantom = super phantom and Mojo X Phantom = "Mystic Potion" then by the same trait Lesser X Phantom should be a "Mystic potion"..but low and behold it a BEL,

No, thats because mojave and lesser are different morphs. you can see that in the super mojave vs the super lesser, along with other combos.

other things like why did some of the Lesser Pied's turn out to be BEL but the Mojo Pieds aren't.

again no...picture taken by me at tinley
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...piedlesser.jpg

Tho I didn't look that close, I don't recall blue eyes eigher, I posted pics after tinley and people on here told me there was more pied looking lesser pieds than all white lesser pieds, tho i do find it intresting there are so many of the all white lesser pieds.

Why do spider pieds have a totally white body with a colored head? Why are Lesser sibs produced from a Lesser to normal breeding not produce Platty Daddys only Platty sibs bred to Lessers produce Plattys.. Then you get in to the Leopards those things just baffle me.

I have yet to look into the spider pieds, and I don't really understand what your saying about the plattys.... but platty is a hidden gene morph, lesser and the platty gene (or w/e its called). look at ralphs site he has all the info on it. hes also made "butter plattys". and I don't even know what a leopard is.

All I'm saying is that the Phantom it seems strange that the Phantom is the only piece of the BEL complex that seems to be missing a corner..

it wasn't strange until the BEL super phantom were brought up. all of ralphs phantom/phantom just produce super phantoms, no BEL, which leads me to believe the mystery breeder has something going on with one of his phantoms

Like was said before I think we'll find that a Mystic potion is a homozygous animal and not a combo of two different genes..

It IS a homozygous animal, mystic and mojave are the pair of genes, if you bred it to a normal, you will only get mojaves and mystics, no normals

All I'm saying is that I have been to that a breeder bred Phantom to phantom and produce super phantoms and BEL's in the same clutch..Could be a fluke could be more going on in that animal than the general public knows. Could have been a double sired clutch.

Which brings me back to saying, its eigher a more complex gene than we know and someone is withholding information and you guys are leaking it out, which if your going to leak it out, why doesn't this mystery breeder everyone seems to know release some real info, so we can stop guessing.

or he has a hidden/unknown gene in his phantom causing it, which would be even more intresting to me

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Originally Posted by MATTI

Anyone working on the axanthic version? Could be a solution.

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huh?

I like the picture comparison. I myself have a super mocha aka latte and was thinking of breeding a phantom. I wonder if that is a bad choice as it will make a bel and not some kind of potion. Any ideas? I wish I had a super mojo.

There could be a hidden gene in some of the phantoms, Since the Hiden gene in the lessers is also a peice of the BEL complex and is not visiable on it's own.

There is so much we do not know, and so many people have animals they they do not know what is all in them.. we know what we see....... we do not know the excact genes of every snake out there..

The problem is that every one thinks they know genetics and know all about ball python genetics. They think its just one gene or two genes that are causing the color/patern changes. In fact it can be 4 or more genes working together. Trying to say that all of the balls that create BEL's are the same complex. If they were then they would all make the same looking snake no matter what they were bred to. Sorry but IMO a Phantom is not a BEL.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

The problem is that every one thinks they know genetics and know all about ball python genetics. They think its just one gene or two genes that are causing the color/patern changes. In fact it can be 4 or more genes working together. Trying to say that all of the balls that create BEL's are the same complex. If they were then they would all make the same looking snake no matter what they were bred to. Sorry but IMO a Phantom is not a BEL.

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Well how technical do you want to get, because technically, the only BEL that actually look leucistic are the lesser/butter x lesser/butter, but on a genetic level I doubt are true leucistic either.

Butter
Mojave
Russo Het Leucistic
Phantom
Mystic
Lesser Platinum
Mocha
Special
Daddy Gene

are all part of the same complex though, they all sit on the same locus. has nothing to do with how the snakes look. Same locus = Same complex in snake talk.

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Originally Posted by Lolo76

Don't know how to answer the last part of your question... but you can make blue-eyed lucies with any combination of mojave, lesser and/or butter. Speaking of which, do the blue-eyed lucies also develop tan patches with age?? :confused:

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How does the Russo (white diamond)
Gene mix with these?? More specifically will the russo
Diamond X Butter produce a BEL?

Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Trying to say that all of the balls that create BEL's are the same complex. If they were then they would all make the same looking snake no matter what they were bred to. Sorry but IMO a Phantom is not a BEL.

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You're right. A phantom is positively NOT a blue-eyed leucistic.

However, breeding trials do strongly suggest that all of the alleles we are talking about (the "phantom" allele, the "lesser" allele, the "mocha" allele, etc.) are on the same locus. It certain isn't proven, but statistics are reeeeeeally starting to point in that direction.

I agree that the term "BEL complex" is a misnomer since more than half of the "super" forms aren't actually leucistics, but that doesn't mean that they can't be on the same locus that does produce leucistics.

Not all alleles on a given locus have to have the same phenotypic expression. In fact, if they did have the same phenotypic expression, we'd never know they were different without genetic analysis.

(Also, I do agree that the expression of homozygous phantom as "super phantom" versus BEL could easily be due to the effect of an epistatic modifier gene -- or two, or more -- on a different allele.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

The problem is that every one thinks they know genetics and know all about ball python genetics. They think its just one gene or two genes that are causing the color/patern changes. In fact it can be 4 or more genes working together. Trying to say that all of the balls that create BEL's are the same complex. If they were then they would all make the same looking snake no matter what they were bred to. Sorry but IMO a Phantom is not a BEL.

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In addition, it's been pretty much proven that genetics DOESN'T work in the simplified way that we try to pass it off in herpetoculture.

It's a good system for estimating the outcome of what offspring may look like, but if you equate typical herpetoculture genetics talk to newtonian mechanics, "real" genetics as we currently THINK we understand it is definitely on par with quantum mechanics.