Jen Harrison Split from Big Daddy's Wholesale Thread

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Wrong again! I'm one of the dumbest people you'd ever meet.. And not ashamed to admit it.. I read the last part of your post. Its poppycock.. None of those people would show there faces on a reptile forum..

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If you honestly believe those people wouldn't show there faces on a reptile forum then your not as clever has I thought. Those people are probally already on this and several other forums taking notes. I'm sure they have been on this forum for quite alwhile now. They want post and let people know who they are, they will just be taking notes. So keep that in mind

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Originally Posted by tncorns

If you honestly believe those people wouldn't show there faces on a reptile forum then your not as clever has I thought. Those people are probally already on this and several other forums taking notes. I'm sure they have been on this forum for quite alwhile now. They want post and let people know who they are, they will just be taking notes. So keep that in mind

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They can kiss my arse!

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Are you ever going to get a clue? Say no one spoke up about this, Jen sells the animals to 3-4 people they intern sellt he same animals to 3-4 other people because they cant keep them for some reason or another. Then BAM! look who is sick all of a sudden. Tons of animals!! Just imagining that makes me sick.. Did I or anyone else say it will happen? No dont think so. DO YOU KNOW IT WONT???

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This is what this whole thing stems from, the unknown and the way Jen's account of the facts change from day to day to fit her story.

I'm still trying to figure out how ALL THREE vets gave her babies the all clear if she can't even get Dr. Jacobsen to return calls or emails? Where these babies tested or just treated? I'd also like to know where the proof is that this virus has been IDed!!! At this point I'm not taking Jen's word for what this is, she's been spinning the story to her liking, way to much and I want to see her vet's report that shows what this is and that it is 100% eradicated from her collection!

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Originally Posted by tncorns

If you honestly believe those people wouldn't show there faces on a reptile forum then your not as clever has I thought. Those people are probally already on this and several other forums taking notes. I'm sure they have been on this forum for quite alwhile now. They want post and let people know who they are, they will just be taking notes. So keep that in mind

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Your post above rather scares me.... :omfg: It's rather cryptic....
Are YOU "one of those people" (ie. feds with nothing better to do so why not be totalitarian?)
Good grief- well, if you are, then you can see that we are a responsible reptile community in that we will go the distance (at least 15 pages now) to try to keep a fellow snake hobbyist from selling off her potentially diseased reptiles.
That's good. Please remember, this is all we are trying to do.... :please:

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Originally Posted by tncorns

If you honestly believe those people wouldn't show there faces on a reptile forum then your not as clever has I thought. Those people are probally already on this and several other forums taking notes. I'm sure they have been on this forum for quite alwhile now. They want post and let people know who they are, they will just be taking notes. So keep that in mind

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Merely speculation presented as fact.

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Originally Posted by starmom

Your post above rather scares me.... :omfg: It's rather cryptic....
Are YOU "one of those people" (ie. feds with nothing better to do so why not be totalitarian?)
Good grief- well, if you are, then you can see that we are a responsible reptile community in that we will go the distance (at least 15 pages now) to try to keep a fellow snake hobbyist from selling off her potentially diseased reptiles.
That's good. Please remember, this is all we are trying to do.... :please:

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If I were one of those people do you really think I would be trying to worn everyone. If I was one of them I wouldn't have ever said a word in the first place, I would have just let this thread keep playing out. So to answer your question, No I'm not. I am a concerned reptile owner that enjoys the hobby and see that some things gets carried alittle out of hand and try to remind people that big brothers people could be and probally is lurking every where taking notes. Thats all I was saying.

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Are you ever going to get a clue? Say no one spoke up about this, Jen sells the animals to 3-4 people they intern sellt he same animals to 3-4 other people because they cant keep them for some reason or another. Then BAM! look who is sick all of a sudden. Tons of animals!! Just imagining that makes me sick.. Did I or anyone else say it will happen? No dont think so. DO YOU KNOW IT WONT???

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I never said I don't believe this, but with all the name calling and He said/she said, no newbie is going to make it past page 2 before they are bored with it and move on! What all was proved in the first 3 pages? A simple opinion and move on would be better. If you read my first professional post here I simply stated the facts I know on the subject!

It makes no sense to sit here and tell people if they buy a snake off of Jen their whole collection of snakes is going to die, unless you know for a fact it is going to happen!

Now to state that you personally would not risk purchasing a snake off Jen Harrison do to what she has disclosed about an sickness her snakes went through! That would be a true statement for me. It also leaves no room for debate.

All the unfounded he said/she said stuff just makes you look less credible in the eyes of a newbee. It also unfortunately makes the thread less credible also! :(

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Originally Posted by tncorns

If I were one of those people do you really think I would be trying to worn everyone. If I was one of them I wouldn't have ever said a word in the first place, I would have just let this thread keep playing out. So to answer your question, No I'm not. I am a concerned reptile owner that enjoys the hobby and see that some things gets carried alittle out of hand and try to remind people that big brothers people could be and probally is lurking every where taking notes. Thats all I was saying.

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Okay then. Cool. So, check this out: We are just the same! I am also a reptile owner and I am also concerned. I am concerned about regulation of our hobby by non-professionals. I am concerned about unethical treatment of animals. I am now concerned about Jen's choices and how those choices can negatively impact these snakes that we all hold dear.
Drama- yes. Jen is the only person who can end this. Either she provides indisputable proof of 100% health from the three doctors who have been dealing with this new and unknown virus, or she admits that she can not do this and shuts down her business, or she culls all remaining snakes, waits for some time, and begins again.
In my opinion, the longer she waits to make her choice, the more difficult it will be to get back the integrity she is giving away.
As for your own dreams of breeding, you have nothing to fear or worry about from the reptile community. We are all trying, every day, to do and be the very best people and reptile keepers that we know how to be. We do our best to grow personally and professionally. We do our best to apologize as quickly as possible when we understand that we've made a mistake. We all make mistakes. We all learn from each other. We all support each other.
It's just that what Jen is doing is putting lives in danger without the customer being aware of the risk and that can not be tolerated.

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

I never said I don't believe this, but with all the name calling and He said/she said, no newbie is going to make it past page 2 before they are bored with it and move on! What all was proved in the first 3 pages? A simple opinion and move on would be better. If you read my first professional post here I simply stated the facts I know on the subject!

It makes no sense to sit here and tell people if they buy a snake off of Jen their whole collection of snakes is going to die, unless you know for a fact it is going to happen!

Now to state that you personally would not risk purchasing a snake off Jen Harrison do to what she has disclosed about an sickness her snakes went through! That would be a true statement for me. It also leaves no room for debate.

All the unfounded he said/she said stuff just makes you look less credible in the eyes of a newbee. It also unfortunately makes the thread less credible also! :(

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You do realize I never started this as a thread right?? If I help ONE newbie out thats fine with me. The others can fend for themselves for all I care. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink..

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

I never said I don't believe this, but with all the name calling and He said/she said, no newbie is going to make it past page 2 before they are bored with it and move on! What all was proved in the first 3 pages? A simple opinion and move on would be better. If you read my first professional post here I simply stated the facts I know on the subject!

It makes no sense to sit here and tell people if they buy a snake off of Jen their whole collection of snakes is going to die, unless you know for a fact it is going to happen!

Now to state that you personally would not risk purchasing a snake off Jen Harrison do to what she has disclosed about an sickness her snakes went through! That would be a true statement for me. It also leaves no room for debate.

All the unfounded he said/she said stuff just makes you look less credible in the eyes of a newbee. It also unfortunately makes the thread less credible also! :(

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Try your best to not minimize the deadly virus that all but wiped out Jen's collection of ball pythons. You are on her forum; haven't you read her page after page of illness that her snakes went through before they died? Granted, she slanted it toward the human emotion of loss, but if you let go that drama, the snakes suffered terribly and then died.
No one vet has given the all clear- or Jen would have that document posted everywhere. But she still decided to sell. *That* is the drama.

The only agenda anyone should have is the safety of the community. I don't know how much clearer it can get than someone posting multiple quotes from Jen where she states emphatically that these animals are ok to go out into the community by order of her 3 vets - specifically the foremost expert in the field. Then turns around and states she hasn't even had contact with said expert since before she knew she had gravid snakes. Adding in his denial of any such doing.

Seriously - what does it take for some people to realize that she is just lying to cover her ass and make a few bucks.

Jens collection is not safe - end of story - close the thread and lets move on.

Is this fauna or BP.net I'm confused as the hostile environment seems to be the same....

Is Jen in the right? Can't really say. Is she a terrible person. Can't really say. However you are all acting like she was being sneaky about selling her babies when she wasn't. Obviously she didn't expect the vicious attacks that ensued. She did take the ads down, did you have to threaten legal action? No, you did not. So there is no need to make it sound worse then it is.
Also, on the time line (something that is on fauna). I've made mistakes on dates, September-November is only a three month period. And while I know many of you so 'amazingly' upstanding citizens have never been the focus of an attack like going on here but I would most likely be a bit frazzled while writing my reply.
While some people come into something just plain not liking the person for various reasons that's expected, but seems to be Jen doesn't have a terrible track record prior to this, not 100% but not terrible.
But by all means lets throw stones, rake her through the mud and then some just because we can and we feel the need.
I browse the BOI quite a bit, I also tend to browse here. And while yes, these threads are never pretty (as was said earlier by a mod) it seems that half the participants are just in it for the sick satisfaction it brings to lay into someone.
As I said in a previous post this is a prime example of why I'm sure that no one will make the mistake of being public with such a thing again and it's incredibly sad and unfortunate for all of us.
Also, we have one 'email' from this vet. While I'm not accusing Tosh of lying or fabricating the email I am astounded at how quickly everyone is viewing it as golden.
There were supposedly three vets working on this situation. How about contacting the others and getting their POVs (also hoping to get permission to post the next ones).

Am I defending her? No, not really. I'm not saying she's right or wrong but come on people. It's like seeing idiots with pitchfoks and torches out on the hunt.

I was giving her the benefit of it being late September since she didn't mention the exact date in which she stopped all traffic in and out but if you want to make it 3 months after the fact than have at it....

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Originally Posted by Entropy

Is this fauna or BP.net I'm confused as the hostile environment seems to be the same....

Is Jen in the right? Can't really say. Is she a terrible person. Can't really say. However you are all acting like she was being sneaky about selling her babies when she wasn't. Obviously she didn't expect the vicious attacks that ensued. She did take the ads down, did you have to threaten legal action? No, you did not. So there is no need to make it sound worse then it is.
Also, on the time line (something that is on fauna). I've made mistakes on dates, September-November is only a three month period. And while I know many of you so 'amazingly' upstanding citizens have never been the focus of an attack like going on here but I would most likely be a bit frazzled while writing my reply.
While some people come into something just plain not liking the person for various reasons that's expected, but seems to be Jen doesn't have a terrible track record prior to this, not 100% but not terrible.
But by all means lets throw stones, rake her through the mud and then some just because we can and we feel the need.
I browse the BOI quite a bit, I also tend to browse here. And while yes, these threads are never pretty (as was said earlier by a mod) it seems that half the participants are just in it for the sick satisfaction it brings to lay into someone.
As I said in a previous post this is a prime example of why I'm sure that no one will make the mistake of being public with such a thing again and it's incredibly sad and unfortunate for all of us.
Also, we have one 'email' from this vet. While I'm not accusing Tosh of lying or fabricating the email I am astounded at how quickly everyone is viewing it as golden.
There were supposedly three vets working on this situation. How about contacting the others and getting their POVs (also hoping to get permission to post the next ones).

Am I defending her? No, not really. I'm not saying she's right or wrong but come on people. It's like seeing idiots with pitchfoks and torches out on the hunt.

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I feel for what Jen went through. No one deserved what happened to her and that's why we are all here asking questions, we don't want to see it happen again.

The problem is that when some of her conflicting statements have been questioned she made more statements which inturn conflict with other statments yet again. The story is ever changing.

We all just want a straight and truthful answer that doesn't conflict with anything that's she's said about this situation.

I will not comment on this thread or it's topic but I will as a person, a Moderator and a member of this forum voice a very strong opinion on what Gloryhound said. What follows are my feelings so take that as you may.

You have an opinion, Gloryhound, that we as staff don't do enough around here? Do you realize that I was up very early on a Sunday morning monitoring this thread and that does include every single darned word you all typed - staff doesn't get to skip posts or skim threads around here. That Judy and I spoke on the phone when we both should have rightly been spending time with our husbands and kids, that Robin and I spoke on the phone while Robin drove back from a family vacation! That every staff member here is doing the same thing, day after day? Every one of us are volunteers in service to this site we love and give far more hours a day to it than quite honestly any of us have to spare.

So we can't please every single member - could you? Are you willing Gloryhound to use your Sunday morning or your time with your family or your vacation to carefully read, discuss and weigh every single word in a thread like this? Do you want to spend the time to worry over and double check your own personal fairness level to make sure you strive with every single word you post to be what this site deserves in a staff member? Do you want the responsibility of knowing that if you do post something that's not worded exactly right, members will call you on it and your credibility as a staff member can be damaged? Do you want to have to moderate and be tough on those you call friends or do business with but you have to because it's your "job" here?

I want that even when it's tough and eats up my time so do not take this as a complaint. I love being a Mod here and the above mentioned just comes with the territory. The staff here are so dedicated and try so very hard, you have no idea. I'm extremely proud to work with this group of people. I'll be darned if I'll sit by and watch anyone say we don't do enough! We are far from perfect but we try and I think do a pretty decent job of it.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off frustrated or angry - probably because I am to some extent.

The problem is Felicia (forgive me if I butchered the spelling of your name :please: ) is that people aren't really asking questions. There are some but there is a lot more attacking and nasty crap going on then there is question asking.

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Originally Posted by BalloonzForU

I feel for what Jen went through. No one deserved what happened to her and that's why we are all here asking questions, we don't want to see it happen again.

The problem is that when some of her conflicting statements have been questioned she made more statements which inturn conflict with other statments yet again. The story is ever changing.

We all just want a straight and truthful answer that doesn't conflict with anything that's she's said about this situation.

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Originally Posted by Entropy

The problem is Felicia (forgive me if I butchered the spelling of your name :please: ) is that people aren't really asking questions. There are some but there is a lot more attacking and nasty crap going on then there is question asking.

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What questions need to be asked? Jens snakes should be Nowhere near a classified ad!

Hi Mel~
I think what you're hearing is a lot of frustration and real concern for the people who were going to get Jen's snakes when they haven't been cleared for sale- even though Jen said that they had.
I also think you're hearing voices that are saying we have to have more integrity than ever in our business deals since our businesses and hobby is under attack.
I also think you're hearing people who have been in on this disaster from the beginning (courtesy of all of Jen's blogs) and then the people who are only just now trying to understand what was going on and what is going on.
I don't agree with your comparison to Fauna. I also don't agree that questions have not been asked. I do believe that the questions have not been answered (where is Jen) and that, in turn, leads to more frustration.
This is just my 2 cents...

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

The only agenda anyone should have is the safety of the community. I don't know how much clearer it can get than someone posting multiple quotes from Jen where she states emphatically that these animals are ok to go out into the community by order of her 3 vets - specifically the foremost expert in the field. Then turns around and states she hasn't even had contact with said expert since before she knew she had gravid snakes. Adding in his denial of any such doing.

Seriously - what does it take for some people to realize that she is just lying to cover her ass and make a few bucks.

Jens collection is not safe - end of story - close the thread and lets move on.

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So is your collection safe? Did you recieve animals from Wyatt and if so did you have them tested after you learned that he has a possibly infected colony? From the stance you are taking this is an unknown virus that needs a lot more research. If it is unknown how do you know that none of the one's your got from him isn't carry it? How can you be positive? Do you know how long it could have been in his collection? At this point I think you are in the same boat as Jen, but of course because that would mean you wouldn't be able to sell your stuff and would have to close your collection I'm willing to bet you believe that you were lucky enough to get animals before the infection started but you don't really know for sure do you?

Mel I agree with you 100%.

Whether you care for Jen on personal basis or not she got the crap end of the stick something that I wouldn't wish on anyone. I guess that I don't believe that Jen is trying to pass on sick snakes and I do believe that she feels that they are no longer a risk so after people tell her that they are still a risk and she shouldn't sell anything she stopped the transactions. It does suck that her stories are inconsistent and that she doesn't recheck what she is typing but in the end she did the right thing.

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Originally Posted by Otter_23

So is your collection safe? Did you recieve animals from Wyatt and if so did you have them tested after you learned that he has a possibly infected colony? From the stance you are taking this is an unknown virus that needs a lot more research. If it is unknown how do you know that none of the one's your got from him isn't carry it? How can you be positive? Do you know how long it could have been in his collection? At this point I think you are in the same boat as Jen, but of course because that would mean you wouldn't be able to sell your stuff and would have to close your collection I'm willing to bet you believe that you were lucky enough to get animals before the infection started but you don't really know for sure do you?

Mel I agree with you 100%.

Whether you care for Jen on personal basis or not she got the crap end of the stick something that I wouldn't wish on anyone. I guess that I don't believe that Jen is trying to pass on sick snakes and I do believe that she feels that they are no longer a risk so after people tell her that they are still a risk and she shouldn't sell anything she stopped the transactions. It does suck that her stories are inconsistent and that she doesn't recheck what she is typing but in the end she did the right thing.

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I'll buy the snakes Jen was trying to sell. For you, All you have to do is put them into your collection after a 90 day qt. Then ad them to your collective group. What ya think? You up for it? I am..

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Originally Posted by Entropy

The problem is Felicia (forgive me if I butchered the spelling of your name :please: ) is that people aren't really asking questions. There are some but there is a lot more attacking and nasty crap going on then there is question asking.

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She's not really answering questions, she's skirting the truth with conflicting stories. Can you see how frustrating and upsetting it is to the rest of us?

For those who think this is no ones business but Jen's..... How would you like to find out some time down the line that you bought an animal that was linked to Jen after all your animals became sick and died? You would feel just like Jen did when she found out that the virus came from Wyatt. The tables have turned and Jen was going to possibly spread the virus on to others. She cannot say with a clear conscience that her animals are 100% clean, just because they were treated. Treatment doesn't mean they are clean just because they are not showing symptoms.

We've still not seen any proof as to what virus it is that killed off most of her collection and neither has she as she has said already. She has stated that she has requested the information and is getting the runaround, so how can she say for sure what it is?

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Originally Posted by Otter_23

... It does suck that her stories are inconsistent and that she doesn't recheck what she is typing but in the end she did the right thing.

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No- she did not do the right thing in the end. She was forced by her peers to do the right thing. THAT is what is so reputation-destroying. SHE DID NOT DO THE RIGHT THING.

No one forced her to pull her ads. Many scammers get called out and keep scamming so bull &#^$ if she in the end didn't do the right thing. She could have chosen to keep the ads up and keep trying to sell them. Wyatt was called out and kept selling his snakes and you view that as the same?

Jas I would appreciate that :rofl: than I'll buy the ones Tosha got from him and ship them to you. Sound like a deal?
I think she has made some bad choices and tried to cover them up. I think she has been impulsive and desperate to try to save a hobby she loves.

Bottom line she shouldn't be selling these snakes and should at the least close her collection. She at this point stopped all sales and closed her collection. What more do you want her to do?

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Originally Posted by Otter_23

Wyatt was called out and kept selling his snakes and you view that as the same?

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Mark, Not in the least. I said "The tables have turned and Jen was going to possibly spread the virus on to others". I'm sure Jen would have felt like crap unlike Wyatt had she done that.

What about all the unanswered questions. I want to know for one if she has contacted the two people that adopted those two balls back in November to inform them that they could be carriers?

Otter23, I'd like her to be honest and consistent.

ghound, who the HECK are you to speak for ANYONE? Did all the newbies in the world get together and elect YOU there spokes idiot?
I use the word idiot after some consideration. You see, only an idiot or someone who NEEDS to have attention heaped upon them, would be so arrogant, and trust me I KNOW arrogant, as to ASSume to speak for sooooooooo very many people who don't know you from a hole to squat over.

If you're so unhappy here, hit the bricks. We were fine before you showed up and I reckon we'll survive after you're not even a memory.

No, I'm not very nice but you're saying mean things to nice people who are not as willing to be as blunt as I am. The mods here, even now, care about what you think and how you feel. It's not like that on many sites. I know this from personal experience both as a member and a mod.

entropy, as far as people not coming forward if they had similar problems because of the way jen has been treated, you might be right. Provided that those people are also liars, self delusional, and care more for their pocket book than their fellow herpers.

Anyone who was honest, told only ONE version of things and then did what was right without guys like me having to question what was happening would be welcomed with open arms and taken care of by more than a few members here. There are a LOT of breeders willing to be helpful in restocking someone who has had the wipeout jen is facing IF the person being wiped out is honest.

Most folks who make donations when someone has had their collection wiped out NEVER say a word about it. They may be thanked by the recipient but they don't go bragging to the world about what they did. Many here have helped others out and no one knows who did the helping. Sometimes we wait years to give the help to make sure the person recieving it is ready to go again.

jen dug this hole all by herself, jumped in it and then asked for a shovel to make it deeper more than once.

She came out in the open but always with that, and I don't mean to be petty, poor me whatever shall I do I can't afford to buy more my whole season is ruined and I'm emotionally wrecked and I just don't know what to do, as an undercurrent to almost every post she's made.

It's a fine thing, truly, that she came forward. It's a damn shame that she messed up that fine thing with lies.

Don't lie, you've got more support than you could ever use.

Lie, and you're food for the fishes.

I would have to agree Wes.

:bow::gj::bow::gj::bow::gj::bow:

A bit off topic but somewhat related to what Wes just wrote.

BW Smith was VERY open about the IBD problem he experienced and documented everything. If I was in the market for a boa, I would not hesitate to buy one from him now. You can be upfront about issues like this. It all depends upon how you handle it.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

entropy, as far as people not coming forward if they had similar problems because of the way jen has been treated, you might be right. Provided that those people are also liars, self delusional, and care more for their pocket book than their fellow herpers.

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The sad fact is there are many people in this hobby that are like that. And as has been proven in the past sometimes it's the supposed 'good guys'... And that, apart from any situation with Jen is something that bothers me a lot about this drama.

Yes, it is possible for snakes with OPMV to have multiple diseases as it destroys their immune system (which is why they almost always die of pneumonia -- which mine did). You can read this in many of the links I have provided to articles/forums on this virus, as well as the e-mail from Dr. Jacobsen months ago that I posted below. The limited evidence that Elliot has found leaning toward a new virus only suggests that there may be something else on top of it. As previously stated, his test results being negative for OPMV are null and void because the animals used for samples may very well not have had sufficient time to develop an immune response as they were not infected for very long before being euthanized (therefore every test done would indeed be negative as it is antibodies that they look for). We are doing new titres on the remaining snakes to confirm or disprove this.

I never stated that it was specifically Dr. Jacobsen that cleared my offspring to be healthy. I said that my vets had told me so -- and indeed it was Dr. Gordon and Dr. Brodnik, who are the other two involved vets in this case. Yes, I have never been contacted directly by Dr. Jacobsen other than the e-mail he sent me way back when this all began before he was ever actually on the case. He was supposed to have been in contact with Dr. Gordon this whole time, which is why when Mark told me where everything was at thus far and that the offspring would be just fine, I took it that he was basing it off what he had learned from Elliot thus far and could be relied upon. Then when Jason Brodnik backed up what Dr. Gordon said, I felt assured that all was true. That is why I decided it would be OK to sell the offspring.

My decision to retract my sales had nothing to do with "getting caught with my pants down", as I wasn't doing anything malicious or trying to "sneak" anything by, as Jas and Tosha want to believe in their deluded realities. I based my decision to sell them off what I was told by two professionals -- and the only reason I changed my mind was because I was forced to rethink the issue with good cause, and decided to err on the side of caution.

Dr. Jacobsen's e-mail to Tosha cannot be completely considered accurate as he was making statements based off of lop-sided rumors and lies that were told to him by Tosha herself. She had told him I had sold snakes from my collection -- not true. She had told him I was attributing statements to him, which I had not -- so again, not true. He also specifically told her that the info shared was not to be shared with anyone else -- which she blatantly violated. This is the response I recieved from him today:

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Re: Virus info...and sharing private medical information...‏
From: Elliott Jacobson (JacobsonE@vetmed.ufl.edu)
You may not know this sender.Mark as safe|Mark as unsafe
Sent: Sun 5/04/08 10:03 AM
To: jennifer.harrison@hotmail.com

Jennifer: I provided some information to an individual who sent an e-mail to methat contained inaccurate information pertaining to recommendations that I supposedly made to you regarding ophidian paramyxovirus (OPMV) in yoursnakes. For instance, I did not recommend that you use the avian Colombovac vaccine. [This was before he ever recieved our samples -- the e-mail is pasted below] The avian viruses are so different than the reptile viruses that I doubt it would have any value even if your snakes had OPMV. If you have a hard scientific paper showing the efficacy of this vaccine for protecting snakes against OPMV, please send it to me. I believe all of the studies done are poorly documented. Plus there was no firm evidence that your snakes had OPMV. I mentioned to you that there were other viruses to consider. After speaking with you, the feeling I had was that your mind was made up and you had an approach you were going to follow. I received samples from Dr. Kincaid and reported my findings back to her. We did PCR for both paramyxovirus and reovirus on samples of lung from 3 snakes that were sent to me. The paramyxovirus PCR was negative. We were able to get an amplification product using our reovirus primer. However, we needed to have this product sequenced to make sure it was reovirus. At that point I notified Dr. Kincaid that we may have identified a virus but further sequencing was needed to verify what we had. I asked that she not share this information until we the sequencing results were completed. The results indicated that we amplified some other sequence that was essentially "garbage". We use"garbage" for any product that gets amplified that is a false positive. In my first review of the electron microscopic images I obtained on tissues from one of your snakes, I thought there might be an orthomyxovirus in the lung. But I was not sure so also I asked Dr.Kincaid not to share this information at that time. I sent images (3 weeks ago) to colleagues at CDC in Atlanta and they had a different opinion about the virus. They believe it is a rhabdovirus. This appears to be the same virus we identified in lung of a ball python in an epizootic in Texas. We are now trying to sequence this virus to determine its identity. This is not simple and straightforward. It may take us months to make a specific identification. I asked Dr. Kincaid to share this information with Dr. Gordon. I assume she did. If not, than I apologize for not sending the information directly to Dr. Gordon. Dr.Gordon should be the one providing the information to you.

I asked the person who sent me the e-mail to consider the information that I provided as privileged information and not be sent to anyone else. I simply wanted to correct the inaccurate statements in his e-mail that were attributed to me. It was a mistake on my part to think thatthis would be followed. So I also apologize for that.

In summary, we have no evidence that your snakes (or at least the samples sent to me) are infected with OPMV. However, we have evidence for a virus that is compatible with members of the family Rhabdoviridae. Our focus is to make a more specific identification of this virus. This could take months. Using Colombovac vaccine is unwarranted. Even if your snakes had paramyxovirus, it is questionable whether such a vaccine would have any value. Antibodies in snakes to OPMV develop 4-8 weeks following exposure (initial infection), not following first signs of clinical disease. Often signs of clinical disease are seen around 3 weeks following exposure. [Thus putting them within the 8 or more weeks it can take to develop antibodies -- and thus the negative test result] Further testing for exposure to OPMV is up to you since at this time there is no evidence at this time that your snakes are infected with this virus.

Any further communication to me about additional testing of your snakesshould be through Dr. Gordon. Any findings will be communicated directlyto Dr. Gordon and Dr. Kincaid (if she sends me any more material from your snakes) and no one else. I wish you the best of luck with your animals.

Elliott Jacobson
Professor of Zoological Medicine

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Just so you have both sides, this is the e-mail I had sent to him that prompted the above response:

Quote:

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Virus info...and sharing private medical information...‏
From: Jennifer Harrison (jennifer.harrison@hotmail.com)
Sent: Sun 5/04/08 2:14 AM
To: jacobsone@vetmed.ufl.edu

Dr. Jacobsen -- My first question that I have to ask, is why you're responding to random strangers and giving them information from my client medical records and the research being done on my animals, without my permission? Then on top of that, this information gets posted on a public forum for hundreds, if not thousands of viewers to see and interpret in various ways (incorrect ones)? Secondly, why are you telling this information to strangers but yet I have not even been contacted by you or given this information by you in either phone form, e-mail form, written mail form, or via any kind of medical reports forwarded to Dr. Gordon to give to me? Dr. Gordon asked me if I'd even recieved a bill from you, to which I responded that I had not, and he found that very odd. Then when I go to read these e-mails posted publicly, they get removed because you requested them to be withheld -- so that not even the person involved (ME) can become more aware of what is going on? I don't understand how you could feel that this was ethically correct or professional.

You have had the samples Dr. Gordon took since January -- yet despite how much we have pressed to get any kind of info from you, you refuse to respond or give us any indication as to what we're dealing with. The only information we get is from a single e-mail sent to the Marshfield Clinic, in which you specifically asked to have hidden from Dr. Gordon and myself...which makes no sense and in my opinion. I don't understand why all the secrecy and refusal to give us your findings. These are MY animals, MY pets that have been dying...MY thousands of dollars in losses and MY thousands of dollars in veterinary bills -- yet Dr. Gordon and I don't hear a word from you or your lab, because you are specifically hiding it from us. In what I said online about my remaining animals being safe to breed and their offspring not having inherited it, that info came from Dr. Gordon and Dr. Jason Brodnik of Colorado -- the third victim from the seller that sent me the original infected animal. I had no reason not to trust what two veterinarians experienced with reptiles were telling me. I have since rescinded my decision to sell my offspring from the 2 accidental clutches I got (2 females went on to ovulate in January despite having only been bred 1-2 times each back in September/October, before this all began). Not a single animal has left my posession since September of last year, far before the original infected animal was ever recieved and this ordeal began.

Back in the beginning when I first contacted you, you advised against using the vaccine. That was before you knew anything about what was going on and before you had ever recieved any samples from Dr. Gordon. Since then, you had not been giving us any kind of info, so we did our own research -- and since OPMV fit the symptoms like a puzzle piece, and the vaccine Colombovac was proven to stop it (and even cure some ill ones -- which makes no scientific sense but nonetheless is true) in MULTIPLE cases in Europe , Dr. Gordon and I made our own decision to import it from a vet in Germany that had experienced this success first hand, and use it in the manner which was discussed in those UK cases. And low and behold -- IT WORKED. I have not had a single new animal fall ill since they were all vaccinated -- and the last two ill ones I had left magically got better, despite every single other treatment failing. All of my animals have been healthy and feeding for months now -- none are symptomatic or otherwise having problems. The two previously ill ones do have a slight dry wheeze once in a great while when upset or stressed, but Dr. Gordon attributes this to lung scarring from all the hemorraging they endured. Despite the e-mail you sent to the Marshfield Clinic discussing the negative result from the OPMV test you did, I still firmly believe that this is what I am dealing with. Mainly because the vaccine worked exactly as it was proven to in other cases, but also because your research on the virus and other articles on it state that antibodies can take up to 8 weeks to develop -- therefore your negative test result is most likely null and void, considering that the 2 females we euthanized for samples had only been sick for 3 weeks. They very well may not have developed any kind of immune system response in that short period of time. My other main reason for firmly believing that this is indeed OPMV, is that the seller's third victim, Dr. Brodnik, had two titres test positive for OPMV in both the carrier animal that he recieved, as well as the mate that it affected (both are now dead). What are the odds that the seller is selling snakes with two separate viruses, both with identical symptoms, timelines, cultures (right down to the secondary Pseudomonas Aeruginosa pneumonia infection), and deaths?

I strongly suggest that we draw blood from the 2 previously sick females and run titres on both -- they were sick for many weeks, and it has been months since they got better. If OPMV is present, they will definitely have antibodies left. I also suggest we draw blood from each of my remaining healthy snakes that never got sick to check for exposure.

I am really upset by the fact that you chose to violate patient confidentiality and share info regarding my pets' medical records with a stranger -- but even more upset by the fact that you hadn't even shared it with me or my veterinarian first. I need you to tell me what you have found so far, what your thoughts are, why it is taking so long, and how we can retest things to get a difinitive answer.


~* Jen *~

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This is the one and only contact I have ever recieved from Elliot until now, before we were able to send him anything. Since then, he was only in rare contact with Dr. Gordon and his office.

Quote:

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Re: Ophidian Paramyxovirus infection‏
From: Elliott Jacobson (JacobsonE@vetmed.ufl.edu)
You may not know this sender.Mark as safe|Mark as unsafe
Sent: Mon 11/19/08 6:54 AM
To: jennifer.harrison@hotmail.com

There are several viral infections in snakes that overlap with paramyxovirus infection. Your outbreak may be caused by this virus or it may not. The snake paramyxovirus is distinct from any other paramyxovirus based on sequencing. I know that some in Europe have used the vaccine for pigeon paramyxovirus in snakes. I do not believe that there are any adequately controlled studies to show that it is efficacious. If your veterinarian wants to know what samples to collect and how to collect them, he/she can contact me.

Good luck,

EJ Elliott Jacobson,
DVM, PhD, DACZM
Professor of Zoological Medicine
Bldg 2015, SW 16th Ave.
SACS, Box 100126
College of Veterinary Medicine
University of Florida
Gainesville, Fl 32610

---

Because of our limited contact with him, Dr. Gordon and I began doing our own research. Based on his findings through his own library, as well as things I printed and brought to him and also communication with a vet in Germany that had experienced this virus first hand, we decided to go ahead and try the vaccine anyway as we really had nothing to lose. Dr. Gordon is not just a stand-by cat and dog vet hanging on Dr. Jacobsen's every word. He has his own years of experience with reptiles and does a LOT of research on exotics on his own, for both his private practice and his work with the UW. It was under his guidance that we chose the path that we did, and I had no logical reason to dispute anything he advised me.

For whoever it was that said "I am refusing to do what is obviously necessary" or something along those lines -- you would too if you were in my shoes and facing the deaths of the very animals you busted your ass to earn and love with a passion that is only superceded by your daughter and your husband. I cannot in good conscience destroy these living, breathing, otherwise-healthy creatures unless I am given undeniable evidence that that is my only choice. Until then, I have no reason to kill them -- I am going to hold out for hope that they can be kept alive and that I can continue with the one and only hobby that I love. If it comes back that they need to be destroyed -- then I will either make that decision, or decide to keep them all as pets and end my business. For now, I will continue working with what I have privately and give things a few years to get confirmed results (whatever they may be), and make my decision after that point.

Dave (Ember): What I have left are as follows: My 2 beloved pets (Spoon and Lucky, striped male and normal female), my adult male clown (Hollywood), my adult male spider (Dash), a breedable sub-adult male genetic stripe that has been here on breeding loan for the entire ordeal, unfortunately arriving last fall right before this all came down and due to safety reasons, couldn't be returned yet (Jack). Yes, his owner is a friend of mine that has been kept very up to date on everything and is aware of what the potential outcome may be. We have our own contract that will be followed if anything happens to Jack. The other remaining animals are a project female that I raised up from a tiny 50-gram CH baby (Leilani -- she is one of the ones that would be hardest to say goodbye to), and an adult CBB yellow stripe female that is another project and unreplaceable as she was the only survivor of her clutch (Misty). Those 7 animals are the vaccinated "Lucky 7" that I had segregated away in a different room back in October and they all avoided becoming ill. Then I also have 2 adult females (Angel and Tarzan) that became ill, somehow managed to ovulate and lay fertile eggs, and upon vaccination returned to normal health. They are feeding and thriving and have been for months. Those 9 total are all that is left from my original collection. There are also my 2 baby butter motley cornsnakes and my 3 rainbow boas, but this virus appears to be only a ball python strain and as such they all remained unaffected. I did vaccinate them anyway, just in case. In a separate quarantine room (my bedroom), I have the following new additions (based on being told by the 2 vets that I am past the infectious period): An adult striped female, 1.1 adult co-dom genetic reduced patterns from Ian G., and 9 kingsnakes (1.1 baby blue-eyed blondes, 1.1 baby Carlsbad stripes, 0.1 baby coastal stripe, 1.0 baby hypo coastal stripe, 1.0 adult desert wide stripe, 0.1 adult albino stripe, and 0.1 adult Mexican black king). If I have to destroy everything, I will not be starting over. I will never be able to replace the animals that I have. I don't have any friends that can keep snakes for me. They either already have snakes of their own, or are deathly afraid of them and would never keep any in their house, or are not allowed to keep animals in their residence.

did you have permission to post those emails?

I read them fully, and IMO what you bolded is much less important that what you did not.
I really feel that you are interpreting things incorrectly to support your diagnosis rather than listening to the whole message, which is: UNKNOWN VIRUS, PLEASE WAIT

keep your collection closed. it's the right thing to do.

I am the client -- therefore it is my medical information and my choice whether to share it or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishmommy

keep your collection closed. it's the right thing to do.

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Have I not already said multiple times for many days that this is what I'm doing?

um, I don't think the Dr's issue with sharing emails had anything to do with client vs. non-client. you should get permission. Besides, it's Dr. Gordon that's the client - not you, if I understand the situation correctly.

as for keeping the collection closed, that's great!
honestly, if you just say that and not muddy the water with all the other stuff you're posting I think this thread would die happy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishmommy

did you have permission to post those emails?

I read them fully, and IMO what you bolded is much less important that what you did not.
I really feel that you are interpreting things incorrectly to support your diagnosis rather than listening to the whole message, which is: UNKNOWN VIRUS, PLEASE WAIT

keep your collection closed. it's the right thing to do.

---

I agree. The bolded text was the least important out of context, as opposed to the entirety of the email. What I got from the email is exactly what has been concerning me this whole time.

To me, personally, without knowing anything about you pros or cons.

It sounds like you have read what you wanted to read (highlighted text with your own notes), even though he urgently tells you that there are scientists around the country, colleagues and other vets, working on this unknown virus, and that you should literally stop doing your own research and persuading yourself. Stop taking any corrective actions, until he has given you a definite answer. That may take months!

I can go online and find WebMD and try to diagnose myself with symptoms, and I may very likely be good at it. But that does not make me a Doctor, or suddenly make me equivalent to one or give me the authority to make any such diagnosis.

You've been immersed into this world, doing your best to learn as much as you can, but frankly, you most likely do not have any schooling in this area, and should take a huge step back. Stop making such large decisions when Dr. Jacobson has said time and time again in his emails that they are still working on your case.

Once again, my concerns are still the same. I do not think your a scammer, I do not think your out to make a fast buck, but I do think you should stay closed for a few years, or until at the least, Dr. Jacobson and his team are able to identify and decide on a course of action.

For the sake of yourself and the rest of this community. God forbid anything happen.

I repeat:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JenHarrison

Have I not already said multiple times for many days that this is what I'm doing?

---

At this point, I don't have anything else to say. I really don't want to be part of a community that spreads vindictive rumors and crucifies people that are trying to do things as best they can and be as honest as possible. The people that have told me this are right -- nothing I ever do will be good enough for anyone. Even in 5 years, once everything is long since cleared out, people will find something new to sink their claws into. I would rather avoid the heartache and drama, especially as I am most unwelcome now it seems. I have left a message for Dr. Gordon today to see if he can come out here and take care of my snakes sometime today or this week. I am going to keep the ones that mean the most to me as pets, and will be done with this hobby entirely. There is nothing left for me to enjoy about it any more, only stress, anger, depression, and sorrow for what I have lost and the future I used to dream about. I am also no longer funding the research for this virus. I refuse to put myself into debt trying to get answers for something that no longer has anything to do with me and isn't going to do me any good. If others in this hobby want to continue to pursue it for the benefit of everyone, then by all means do so. I can have all records transferred to whoever wants to take over. I'm sorry if this disappoints my friends and supporters, and I greatly appreciate all of you who have been there for me for such a long time. But this is what I have to do -- if I keep going the way I am, I'm going to fall apart and so will everything else I hold dear.

For those of you that will make some comment about this post being dramatic or me "running away" or whatever other BS you can come up with -- well, you know where you can shove it. I don't care.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JenHarrison

Have I not already said multiple times for many days that this is what I'm doing?

---

Jen has stated she will not sell any animals. I think that is all anyone was concerned about (at least all that I was concerned with) so don't you think the issue has now been resolved?

Aside from all of the BS flying around. The 'witch hunt' as they call in on the BOI, the main reasoning for this thread has done it's job.

The community was concerned with her selling the babies that came from the infected mothers, that have since had no clinical signs and have been vaccinated for a OMPV virus.

Other concerns were statements that this may be a new virus. If it were a new virus, then perhaps NO animals should leave her collection.

That's all it has ever been about. For me anyways.

She was told that she was in the right, to sell and breed her animals (not necessarily just the previously infected ones), by at least one vet.

The other Vet has said he's still working on it.

With the lack of any hard evidence about what actually happened to these animals, YES, we are concerned about you letting any leave your possession.

I think all anyone has been saying is to just WAIT. Just wait Jen. You don't need to destroy your animals. Just wait... let things play out.

Don't throw us a guilt trip and destroy your collection, just don't make hasty decisions when we are still in the dark about what truly Dr. Jacobson is working on.

You may have been convinced, but obviously there were many that weren't. Given the sketchy details and just your word that you were told it was ok, it's hard to believe unconditionally.

Like it has been said, no one would ever wish what happened to your collection on someone else.

Given the devastation that came from Wyatts animals, nothing is certain at this point in time given what little details we have. Many others have a lot to lose just as you did.

I think that's all anyone has really been concerned about. Just wait... separate the chaff from the grain, and wait. There are many people that don't think your deserving of the accusations being made here.

What lies and rumors did I tell the Dr. Jen? Did you not say repeatedly that he told you that you could start rebuilding your collection that you could sell animals into the community, etc.? If you need to think about it go back and read Deborahs posts quoting you as saying such, there are plenty more out there as well. Did you not have the hatchlings up for sale as well as some females you picked up at the local petstore and brought home - weren't hatchlings all ready to be shipped out? In at least one of your posts you implied that they were gone to new homes? All according to you under the advice of Dr. Jacobsen, again see your quotes. I simply emailed him and told him that IMO that was totally irresponsible advice considering what you just went through. My email was based on what yousaid - if there are lies in it - then you put them there - not me. Stop making me out to be the bad guy - they are your lies.

I'm just glad I have my lists of who is ok to buy from and who is not..

Kind of sucks being in Texas since everyone in Texas is getting blamed for having all of these viruses. Most dangerous thing in my collection might be some stuck shed..

The sad thing is that she's not far off. Lets say she waits a year, or five, or ten. When she came back someone would start pointing fingers and say "but how can we be SURE? Did you move at least 100 miles away from your last residence? Replace everything you ever owned?"
And sadly Indiangirl many people did tell her to euthanize her animals. And I will disagree that this thread did it's job. She had pulled her ads prior to this ad had canceled all sales prior to this. So the only thing his really did was completely break a person down to the point she's planning on destroying her snakes (a drama tactic or not after all the BS and crap that's been slung around I can't blame her for feeling that way...and I thought the equine world was nasty....).
Shall we all have a round of applause for the wonderful effort shown here to get rid of an evil scam artist? Ooo, I have an idea. You can put the same effort into attacking Wyatt who is still selling possibly sick animals to completely uninformed people. So, those of you worried about getting something that has been in contact with this sickness just might get lucky from someone who doesn't know there is a reason to disclose info. Great job!

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

I don't know what's happening with wyatt's thread over on fauna but if it's not active, perhaps you, entropy, should go over there and bring it to the top.

If all you're doing is complaining about how jen was treated, when she brought it on herself, then perhaps you're part of the problem. If, by chance, you're over on fauna trying to do something about wyatt, then disregard this post.

But if you're not, why aren't you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Entropy

The sad thing is that she's not far off. Lets say she waits a year, or five, or ten. When she came back someone would start pointing fingers and say "but how can we be SURE? Did you move at least 100 miles away from your last residence? Replace everything you ever owned?"
And sadly Indiangirl many people did tell her to euthanize her animals. And I will disagree that this thread did it's job. She had pulled her ads prior to this ad had canceled all sales prior to this. So the only thing his really did was completely break a person down to the point she's planning on destroying her snakes (a drama tactic or not after all the BS and crap that's been slung around I can't blame her for feeling that way...and I thought the equine world was nasty....).
Shall we all have a round of applause for the wonderful effort shown here to get rid of an evil scam artist? Ooo, I have an idea. You can put the same effort into attacking Wyatt who is still selling possibly sick animals to completely uninformed people. So, those of you worried about getting something that has been in contact with this sickness just might get lucky from someone who doesn't know there is a reason to disclose info. Great job!

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

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So this thread was completely uninformative for those of us that still had questions, for the people that were concerned about our own collections? Was it completely useless in that it has been noted that there is still speculation to the identity of this virus? That there is still no guarantee and now everyone that may have been considering purchasing those animals is now totally informed of the entire story?

So far, before this thread, everything she had said between the different mediums left more questions than answers (I for one had more questions). I think this thread has gotten those questions mostly answered.

Aside from the few (and by few, I mean the 3-4 people) that made it their mission to berate her, insult and almost harass her, for each one, there are many more that are still sympathetic and think well of her.

If your going to attribute her current status to this forums entire community, perhaps you should read over this thread and read the heartfelt sentiments from many others that do feel genuine concern for her and how others have treated her. They are there, even though they have been overshadowed by the BS posts, they are there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I don't know what's happening with wyatt's thread over on fauna but if it's not active, perhaps you, entropy, should go over there and bring it to the top.

If all you're doing is complaining about how jen was treated, when she brought it on herself, then perhaps you're part of the problem. If, by chance, you're over on fauna trying to do something about wyatt, then disregard this post.

But if you're not, why aren't you?

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I browse fauna and will post inquiries and experiences but I'm not a big fan of the hunt. I'm not quite sure how I'm part of the problem being as I'm an observer but hey, whatever works.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Kind of sucks being in Texas since everyone in Texas is getting blamed for having all of these viruses. Most dangerous thing in my collection might be some stuck shed..

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*snort-giggle!* :rofl:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Entropy

I browse fauna and will post inquiries and experiences but I'm not a big fan of the hunt. I'm not quite sure how I'm part of the problem being as I'm an observer but hey, whatever works.

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Those who complain about a system yet do nothing to change it are those who make the system the complain about possible.

That's the problem. You complain and do nothing else.

What the definition of entropy again?

I think numbers 4 and 5 seem to fit you quite well. Don't you agree?

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
en·tro·py Audio Help (ěn'trə-pē) Pronunciation Key
n. pl. en·tro·pies

1. Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work.
2. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system.
3. A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message.
4. The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity.
5. Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.

Sorry Cass.. I DID forget to mention the rabid, attack Whites's Tree Frog. He will hurl all 1.5 inches of himself at your JUGULAR!

Anywho..

See Wes, this is my point. I post my opinion twice and now I'm getting static for my choice in handles which has no place in this thread.
As for 'a system'. There is absolutely nothing I personally could do to change the 'system' at fauna or here in this thread. Most of the BP.net inquiry threads maintain a more mature and less hostile tone. This one did not, that is what I had a problem with. I would not like to see the tone there brought here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Entropy

See Wes, this is my point. I post my opinion twice and now I'm getting static for my choice in handles which has no place in this thread.
As for 'a system'. There is absolutely nothing I personally could do to change the 'system' at fauna or here in this thread. Most of the BP.net inquiry threads maintain a more mature and less hostile tone. This one did not, that is what I had a problem with. I would not like to see the tone there brought here.

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I see it differently and I find names often tell a lot about the named.

You aren't happy with things. You want them to change.

You won't do anything about it yourself other than verbalize your unhappiness.

I think that sucks. I could sugar coat it for you, but I won't.

Do something about it if you don't like it. If you just let bad guys get away with stuff, the bad guys will always think they can.

You want to know why allen won't post on any thread I'm posting on? Because he knows I won't cut him any slack for being a lying scumbag. He runs and hides. Better that than sitting back and letting him sell sick snakes. I'd be doing it on fauna with wyatt if I could. It makes a difference when one more joins in.

You could help make that difference instead of complaining about the consequences of NOT speaking up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Sorry Cass.. I DID forget to mention the rabid, attack Whites's Tree Frog. He will hurl all 1.5 inches of himself at your JUGULAR!

Anywho..

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Dang- that's why I'll never go to Texas........ :D