Kiss your hobby goodbye!!!! USFW Proposed ban!!!!

i posted on that site where you can leave comments. I dont want this to happen! :(

The summary is poorly written. They do not clearly state if they are inquiring about "ALL" Python, Boa and Eunectes genera as everyone is assuming or if they are inquiring about larger species. Don't get me wrong, I am against any federal level restrictions. If anything, restrictions should be done state by state. Name one species of constrictor that would cause an enviromental impact in Maine? ;)

Keep on guard, but keep in mind that this is "inquiry" for information, they have not even proposed a ban yet.

Rick

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SUMMARY: We, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service or We), are reviewing available biological and economic information on constrictor snakes in the Python, Boa and Eunectes genera for possible addition to the list of injurious wildlife under the Lacey Act.

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I left them this comment
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Since 2002 I have been collecting and breeding some of the rarest and most beautiful python species on the planet. I have invested a lot of disposable income and countless hours of effort maintaining my breeding colony. It is not only a hobby but a passion and hopefully a small business in the very near future. It is what I have been planning on to supplement my wife's income so I can keep working at my full time job and she can raise our children the right way. If I succeed, this would also mean another small business the federal and state government would enjoy collecting taxes from.

If banning the importation and interstate sale of pythons and boas is established, all my years of effort will be for nothing. On a side note, but nonetheless important, how is enacting this ban a legitimate role of government? It protects nobody, and will only drive this trade into the black market. We people who are deeply into this business/hobby take great care of our animals, and try our best to make sure they end up in the most responsible of hands. True, there may be some who relinquish their responsibilities and not care for their animals properly, but they are the minority, and should be punished for their actions. That's the legitimate role of our government: that we have the freedom to be responsible in our trade, and if we commit any crimes of abuse or neglect, we should be punished.

But to blanketly punish us all for crimes we never commited and ban a completely lawfull industry and market is the exact opposite of freedom.

Those who would pass such laws and ordinances most likely have never had the privelege of spending a year feeding and cleaning up after a beloved animal, then introduce them to a mate, to wait months for them to lay their eggs, to then wait a few more months incubating those precious eggs, and finally to watch as those tiny babies pip their little noses out of those eggs and you realize you were responsible for creating those little lives. Then you see that rare genetic color mutation you've been hoping to reproduce and outbreed, or you see that endangered species hatch out of 8 more eggs! This is what it means to us.

We have done more for these species than any naturalist or environmentalist. Our passion and the free market has saved these animals from extinction. The Indian Python is hugely popular, as is the Dumeril's Boa... both on the endangered species list, and both are bred for love and for business, to sell to others who have that same love and business aspirations.

Our trade is the only hope for a lot of these animals that would otherwise be hunted to extinction or left to the ravages of jungles or human encroachment. Our business aspirations and love for these animals make others appreciate them and influence them to be a part of it. The look in children's eyes who see not only their first python, but a genetic mutation that makes them half white leaves children and adults alike in awe, and it keeps this whole thing going.

Please, take everything I have written into consideration. This is important to a LOT of people, so let the people be the ones to decide this industry's fate.

Thank you for your time.

Alrighty.. I've thought about it a few days.. here is my letter. Feel free to base your letter off it (I based mine off one posted above.. but I changed it considerably) and offer suggestions if you see any problems:

To Whom It May Concern,
It has come to my attention that the USFW is proposing adding
snakes of the genera Python, Eunectes, and Boa to the list of
injurious species under the Lacey Act. This will affect the
interstate commerce and importation of many common pet
species. This addition is not needed, and would essentially halt
the business of captive reptile breeding. This would not help the
economy; the reptile business is big, and growing daily.

The idea of protecting our wild ecosystems is noble, however the
proposed legislation will not help in this case, and could actually
harm it.

The animals in question all come from tropical areas of the world.
They can not survive freezing temperatures. In fact, one of the
greatest expenses in keeping these animals is the heating. I keep
seven of the species of the genera concerned. All of them are
kept at a constant 80-90 temperature gradient. The only time
they are cooler is when they are breeding, but they never go
below 65 degrees as this is dangerous for them.
These species simply could not establish themselves in the wild in
the US, except for one portion of one state: The Florida
Everglades.

All states already have laws that prohibit the release of
non-native animals into the wild. Florida has just instated a permit
system involving the burmese python (Python molorus bivittatus)
and several other species. This addresses this problem directly.
Additional legislation is not needed, and again--would cripple the
multi-million dollar reptile business as well as endanger the jobs of
many; not only reptile breeders, but breeders of feeder rodents,
equipment suppliers and pet stores that sell reptiles and reptile
supplies.

The captive breeding of these species is not only a valuable
business, it protects the species. Keeping these animals fosters a
deep appreciation for wildlife in general. We want to see these
animals thrive not only in captivity, but in their native habitat. In
fact, if it weren't for private captive breeding, the Hog Island boa,
and the Cay Caulker's boa may very well be extinct. The Hog
Island boa IS considered extinct in its native habitat... but these
small boa constrictors are a popular pet and there are thousands
in private hands. They are not particularly impressive animals, so
zoos do not often keep them or breed them. If it weren't for the
captive breeding business.. these species may have been no
more.

If this were to be enacted, thousands of captive reptiles would
become effectively worthless. Professional breeders will find it
difficult, if not impossible to sell their stock within their state.
Many of the larger breeders even export their animals to other
countries. It is not hard to imagine some people releasing their
animals to cope with the problem. In areas other than southern
Florida, this would not impact the wildlife, but do we really want
to deal with the possibility of an influx of released snakes into the
Everglades area? This is the exact thing we are trying to avoid.
Let Florida take care of it--as they already have begun to.

Most of the species in question here do not even exceed 2 meters
in length. These animals are not dangerous to humans, and are
exceedingly popular pets. One of the most popular is the ball
python (Python regius) of Africa. It rarely exceeds 4' and there
are many color and pattern morphs (varieties different from the
normal wild-type animal) that sell for multiple thousands of dollars.
Some even carried a price tag of $100,000. Again, this is big
business. Do you want to force it underground with this
legislation? I'm afraid it would be inevitable.

I personally maintain a collection of 39 snakes. I have spent well
over 10,000 on my collection (I'm 20 years old, so that is a lot of
money for me!) and I plan to turn it into a small business. This
legislation would not solve the problem it is intended to address,
and it would make many people lose their jobs--and not allow
them to pursue their passion for these beautiful animals. Again, let
Florida take care of it. Federal legislation is not needed and would
do more harm than good.

Thank you for your time,
April Curtis

You guys might find this interesting...

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1471997,1471997

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

You guys might find this interesting...

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1471997,1471997

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Ok now that is intresting

Its an exploratory thing...

To me its like talking about banning dolphins in Kansas...they are basically exploring the possibility of each species and its ability to affect native habitats. A lot of people out there are just ignorant to reptiles and as a result, we have issues like this come up.

I personally feel that the states all should have a right to make their own decisions based on their own situations. Local problems should be dealt with at a local level - not federally.

We can all think of one area that is basically ruining it for the rest of us - FLO-RIDA.

perhaps its been asked before, and I apologize if it has, but where does that leave those of us who own said snakes? are we going to get in trouble if they catch us with one?

This is not a ban on the KEEPING of the snakes, but a ban on importing and exporting of the snakes. Meaning, you can't import them from overseas and you can't ship them over state lines.

Too Many Rules in the good ol us of a.

So pretty much it's just Burmese Python now? I'm confused:confused:

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Originally Posted by KLG

That's not the primary focus - the primary focus is potentially invasive species that may have an impact on our native ecosystems. This is where RESPONSIBLE HERPETOCULTURE comes into play! If they weren't finding Burmese pythons in the Everglades, this wouldn't have as much validity.

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Sadly our Legislators may not get involved or informed enough to have a primary focus at all and may just paint all constrictors whether native or imported, large or small, commonly released or never released into the wild with the same broad brush and ban interstate transportation of them. Hopefully the knowledgeable people on the panel will have an opportunity to present all the information that they would like to give.

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Originally Posted by nathanledet

I don't quite understand how ball pythons have been lumped into this. What grounds to they have to say that ball pythons, and other small pythons/boas are a threat to the environment?

I realize that there are quite a few animals out there that do pose risks to the environment and even humans, but I just don't understand how smaller reptiles are suddenly targeted as a danger and threat to the wild...

Is there any significant proof of people releasing ball pythons and it causing a problem? anywhere?

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Just the broad generalizations---any and ALL pythons....since it's geared more towards the giants, but naming all pythons /boids it makes it easier for them, but puts the hit on the little guys, too.

No matter WHAT's named, or not, this is a bad idea all around. Yes, fact-finding, but if the lobbyists & PETA didn't get their grubby mitts into everything, we wouldn't have to be shoveling this "stuff" all the time. Bureaucrats and politicians usually have help coming up with the brain-dead crap like this!!!!

U can be sure I'm posting and mailing. OREGON just went through this whole thing this last spring and summer. Exact same stuff...proposed bannings and permits only for zoos, research facilities, etc. I'm sooooo glad someone pulled their head out and it was tabled. < Not to say it can't, or won't return, but for now, it's a dead issue. >

I'll be emailing friends and family, encouraging them to post their comments and :twocents:. Most all know of our collection of pets, and my goals to eventually breed for an income boost, so their input should help also. *fingers crossed*

There is a site to make an electronic reply. It's at http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspubli...000064803a565f. Yes you have to give name and address, and they spell out it will be made public but I don't care! They have to realize some of us are responsible with our animals.:taz::salute:

So first off I am new to this forum. Up until I found out about this newly proposed ban I had no need for these sorts of forums. I have been reading this thread and I think some very key points have been missed in this thread. On one hand this ban only states that it is banning transporting across states of the reptiles except for the purposes stating. A lot of you are stating that they are taking them away from you. Understandable if you give them an inch they'll take a mile but if you aproach them saying don't take my animal away they will only reply they are not. Stick to the facts which are that thay are hoping to ban transportation. On a side not what has also not been mentioned on this thread is that they are trying to have these species included into the Lacey act which I have not read in detail but I believe does prohibit the sale or the purchase in any state of the animals on said list. I myself am also new to the ball python thing but was very excited about the breeding I have planned for many different reasons one is the science aspect as well as self education. One thing that it says is they will be allowing permits for educational and scientific purposes. My thing is I'm not a scientist, I don't go to school but in my house I learn from my animals and that to me is the highest form of education. In regards to the poor treatment of these animals by a few banning will only make things worse. Those that are caring for their animals will be effected and those letting them go or transporting wild caught will only continue doing things on the black market where the snakes will be put in more jeopardy. Sorry for the lengthy post but the main points to focus on was to make you all aware of the Lacey Act.

Regarding this proposed ban, it states importation into USA and transportation interstate. Wouldn't this allow for breeders to breed their current animals and sell within their own state? In other words, wouldn't owners technically still be allowed to legally purchase and/or keep these animals - provided that they were not imported into the US and/or transported between states?

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Originally Posted by Dvas_Romeo

Regarding this proposed ban, it states importation into USA and transportation interstate. Wouldn't this allow for breeders to breed their current animals and sell within their own state? In other words, wouldn't owners technically still be allowed to legally purchase and/or keep these animals - provided that they were not imported into the US and/or transported between states?

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Yes but there would be so little buyers in one state the breeders wouldn't be making any money.

If you haven't done so already, please read this article:

PIJAC Interviews USFWS
Seeks to clarify notice of inquiry on constrictor snakes.

Maybe this will clear up some confusion as to what this is all about.

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Originally Posted by Kerig3

If you haven't done so already, please read this article:

PIJAC Interviews USFWS
Seeks to clarify notice of inquiry on constrictor snakes.

Maybe this will clear up some confusion as to what this is all about.

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Very imformative link. From what that article says they are trying to educate themselves what species may be a long term enviromental threat. In my opinion south Florida and Hawaii(where snakes are illegal any way) are the only places in the US tropical enough where most of the boa and python species could
survive in the wild and have a chance of establishing themselves long term. Florida has already adjusted laws to try to curb the problem in the everglades and that is a very localized enviromental issue.

The fact that they are also interested in economic info sounds like uncle Sam feels he might not be getting his share of an industry no one was paying to much attention to.

At least thats what I got out of the article.

What I find "interesting" is that the American Alligator can go from their low numbers to over 1 million and that's a good thing, but a couple hundred Burmese pythons can be let go in the Everglades and suddenly they're disrupting the balance of nature!

If there was a 20ft python naturally in the Everglades and their numbers were in the hundreds, it would be put on a critically endangered species list for fears of its extinction! And environutjobs would blame humans for it. Yet for some reason just because these pythons weren't naturally put there, they're going to overpopulate and kill off native species. HUH?????

Don't you think the over 1 million alligators are eating more of those native species than a couple hundred "critically endangered" pythons?

Just helping us all think out of the box a little.

PIJAC Recommendations on the Ban.

I posted this in it's own separate thread but thought it could of use here also.

As a PIJAC member I just got an email notice from them on the FWS Large Constrictor Ban. Following is their recommendation on responding to it.

Recommended Action.
We ask that you withhold submitting your comments until close to the April 30 deadline in order to allow PIJAC time to provide you with guidance and information that will help you prepare effective comments. PIJAC is currently engaging in meetings with the FWS and gathering information to assist you on this issue. Again, please note, that this is not a proposed rulemaking notice – it is only a notice to gather information, especially biological, on these particular snakes.
PIJAC is also undertaking an extensive literature search of peer-reviewed articles, lay magazines, and books to gather relevant information to respond to the questions raised by the FWS. Anyone who has copies of articles or other pertinent information on the biology of any of the species should send them to PIJAC at info@pijac.org AND to PIJAC’s Senior Science and Policy Advisor, Dr. Jamie K. Reaser pijacscience@nelsoncable.com. Dr. Reaser is compiling a database which PIJAC will use to develop a formal science-based response on behalf of the industry and hobbyists, as well as to provide guidance for people to use in crafting their comments.
Thirdly, PIJAC is conducting a survey of concerned members of the herpetoculture community and the industry to collect data to answer the questions posed by the FWS regarding numbers of breeders, animals sold, economic questions, etc. This information will be consolidated and presented as data summaries without identifying individuals supplying the information. The FWS is very aware of the concerns of many people about revealing their identity. If you are interested in providing herpetoculture data to PIJAC, please contact PIJAC at info@pijac.org.
All proprietary data (i.e. contributors’ identity, numbers of animals, financial data) will be treated as confidential information and will only be seen by PIJAC staff.
We urge you to review this notice carefully and consider the implications that could come as a result of listing any of these snakes as injurious wildlife. If you have further questions concerning this matter, please contact PIJAC’s Marshall Meyers by phone at 202-452-1525 or by email at mmeyers@pijac.org. Those who are not members of PIJAC and desire further information about membership may phone Nancy Knutson at 1-800-553-PETS (7387) or visit the PIJAC website at www.pijac.org.
Where to send your comments:
FWS will be receiving comments and other information on this issue until April 30, 2008. You may submit comments by one of the following methods:
• U.S. mail or hand-delivery: Public Comments Processing, Attn: RIN 1018-AV68,
Division of Policy and Directives Management, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, 4401 North Fairfax Drive, Suite 222, Arlington, VA 22203; or • Website: www.regulations.gov (Follow instructions for submitting comments. In the “comments or submissions” box type in keyword: “injurious wildlife”. This should take you to the comment page.). FWS will not accept e-mail or faxes, and will post all comments on http://www.regulations.gov.
This generally means that FWS will post any personal information you provide. For further information contact Erin Williams, Branch of Invasive Species at (703) 358-2034 or erin_williams@fws.gov.

I hope this helps,

Something smells fishy to me here. Does FWS normally go looking for scientific data from the public? Or public comment for that matter? Why wouldn't they gather data themselves?

It seems altogether too *nice* to me. Whenever a government organization does something rational, like ask the public for information and opinions before they make a rash decision, I hesitate to trust it.

I mean, they're the FWS! Shouldn't they KNOW in the first place that a ban on trade of all species of Python/Boa/Eunectes is just ridiculous? I'm sure they've heard of ball pythons and RTB's as they are in just about every pet store that sells reptiles, and in the vast majority of cases are harmless. And, wouldn't they know the obvious fact that in nearly every state except Florida, these snakes can't survive in the wild for long and thus pose no threat to the wildlife?

OK, so some of you are saying, "It's obvious to YOU, but not obvious to non-herpers." But think about it: The Fish And Wildlife Service. They MUST have at least one semi-knowledgable animal biologist employed under them who'd be aware of this stuff!!!!!!

Furthermore... if this all started around burms in Florida, why does it make any sense to extend one small problem in one state to an entire country? This should all be basic knowledge to the folks at the FWS, which makes me believe there is something involved behind the scenes.....

What's everyone think?

I completely agree. It has been my thought the whole time. It feels to me like they want us to feel they are being fair so when it comes down to taking them away they can say do to the facts gathered from us. I don't plus if you read the interview with them and pijac it didn't sound very good either. Pijac didn't ask the questions that matter and the ones that were answered were vague. I don't want to give up any of our rights to own or transport any species that are already common trade.

i had ball pythons ever since i was 10 years old..this is bull

i've felt the same way... i think they're opening this to public comment strictly so they can gain more info on the demographics and types of people most directly affected by the ban. clearly they dont care what we think... they care about taking swift and decisive action and about abusing their democratically gained powers to the fullest extent possible.

let me also say that i visited the everglades last year and florida has much much much bigger problems that a few burms... how about pollutants, drout, and the draining of their natural wetlands for irrigation and human consumption??? there is no everglades. i went in the spring and it was a big field basically. not a whole lot of fresh water there.

Another thing. Realistically, BP owners need NOT worry about the interstate trade of BP's... simply because of their role in the pet industry. Think about how many BP's are sold by Petco and Petsmart each year... and those all come from out of state for most stores. Now think about how many Petcos and Petsmarts there are in America. That's a lot of snakes and a lot of business. (And, mind you, Petco sells baby normals for $80.)

It's the non-mainstream snakes that matter. They probably expect lots of owners to say, "Oh , well don't ban ALL of them, just ban the big ones like burms and condas." Then they can just go ahead and do it, saying they had public approval...

The whole thing is just scary. In my state, you need to have a permit for owning large snakes like retics and condas (not burms as far as I know, but could be wrong). If there's a burm problem in FL, that PARTICULAR state should consider a permit system, instead of a ban of ALL trade of these animals.

All of this just rubs me the wrong way!! :mad::rage:

And I just recently decided to become a breeder! Looks like I'd better wait and see how this things plays out before buying that expensive piebald. I'll definately send a letter. The main reason I'm against this proposal is a simple matter of rights, but I'll cite economic reasons in the letter.

Keep in mind this is a consensus and not a bill and most people who aren't into snakes as a hobby are not even going to hear about this so it gives us a pretty good chance of keeping our hobby safe. Just my opinion.

I think the FWS has some ground here, and I don't necessarily think they are gearing this just to giant snakes. Just think of what the brown tree snake did to Guam...and the pythons in the everglades are becoming more and more of a problem. There are breeding populations that are rapidly growing and are increasingly making their impact known to native wildlife (as if there weren't enough problems in the first place).

I do agree that this sounds rather suspicious...their proposal only makes me think they are more inept at their job than previously thought. Anyone new to the hobby can find out this information in a week, yet the FWS has to undergo a massive effort to gather data as if it were hard to find. Basically they lack anyone educated enough or intelligent enough to handle this without bureaucracy and BS. After all they have to prove their jobs are worthy. God forbid they tackle real problems like our sieve quality port security. If they knock off some easy problems and make life hard for normal law abiding US citizens then they can prove they are doing their jobs.

I work for a major US institution...and because of this they play by the laws 100%. Every time some small problem occurs on the paperwork, or someone sends an unsolicited protected species in, or a mistake is made...it's reported. And all hell breaks loose from the FWS because they can crack down on us and make it look like they are there for a reason, to prevent the evil museum's from doing honest scientific research. They are busy slapping fines and watching over our shoulders while Mr. Smith down the street imports 1000 Amazon parrots illegally every week.

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Originally Posted by FIREball

I can see it now, illegal drug I mean snake trafficers. Instead of hidden compartments for drugs there will be hidden rack systems so breeders can sell their reptiles to out of staters. Instead of cops busting marijuans grow houses they will look at electric bills to determine who is using heat tape and radiator heaters. This sucks.

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Lol, how do you think drug dealers make the drugs? Large lights and lots of water.

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Originally Posted by JeffFlanagan

You can submit your comment here.

My comment:
Regarding the proposed snake ban,

I think that we should be aware of the broad variety of snakes that would fall under the current description. The large snakes can be extremely dangerous, and I can understand an interest in regulating them to keep them out of the hands of inexperienced keepers.

On the other hand, small snakes like Ball Pythons, some Carpet Pythons, and Boas make wonderful pets and are less dangerous than a kitten. They require specific conditions to survive, making wild populations impossible in most of the United States, and are only a danger to the small rodents we consider pests.

I'm a Ball Python hobbyist, and plan to grow my hobby of breeding beautiful snakes into a business I can fully focus on when I reach retirement age. I ask that you not crush this dream.

Thank you for considering my input,

Jeff Flanagan

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Thank you, Jeff. I hope you don't mind that I used your comment as the draft for my own.

All, here is the link where you can post your comments:
http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspubli...000064803a565f

And here is what I submitted:

"Regarding the proposed snake ban,

I think that we should be aware of the broad variety of snakes that would fall under the current descriptions. Some giant snakes (such as Burnese Pythons, Reticulated Pythons, and Green Anacondas) can be dangerous, and I can understand an interest in regulating them to keep them out of the hands of inexperienced keepers.

On the other hand, small snakes like Ball Pythons, Carpet Pythons, and Boas make wonderful pets and can be less dangerous than a dog or cat, especially with proper handling techniques and adult supervision. They require specific conditions to survive, such as tropical forests, making wild populations impossible in most of the United States, and are only a danger to the small rodents we consider pests.

I'm a pet snake hobbyist. We have four pet snakes - a Ball Python, a Jungle Carpet Python, a Kenyan Sand Boa, and a Rosy Boa (which is native to the SW United States). Our family got started with the Ball Python as a juvenile for my oldest son's 6th birthday. She and the two boas are the most docile pets we have ever owned. The Jungle Carpet Python is becoming more and more tame with careful adult handling, although even when this one bites, it is the equivalent of a pin prick or two and nothing more. We enjoy watching, caring for, and handling all of our snakes. It brings us great pleasure as small-time hobbyists.

We can't imagine snakes such as these being restricted or regulated. It would interfere with others' chances to enjoy this hobby as much as we do.

Please consider which specific species are a danger and which are not. It is imperative that you do not restrict harmless reptile species out of ignorance.

Thank you for considering my input,
Melissa J. Kowalski"

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Originally Posted by V1L3 DiaL3cT

Keep in mind this is a consensus and not a bill and most people who aren't into snakes as a hobby are not even going to hear about this so it gives us a pretty good chance of keeping our hobby safe. Just my opinion.

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Things can turn around quick when a news (USA today) paper runs a front page article called "Pythons have us in their grasp" on 2-21-08. Then they use a bunch of hypotheticals to make people panic. I cancelled our subscription. When a paper writes a story that is based on possibilities and not fact, then puts it on the front page it makes me think they have an agenda and are not an unbiased news agency.

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Originally Posted by AndrewH

The other thing they're not looking into is the damage that the hurricanes have done, to allow this. They've released a multitude of species into the everglades that could establish themselves, including various species of primates, various mammal species, various species of monitors, elapids, various other Pythons including Reticulated Pythons, African Rock Pythons and rare species. The most common and notable though is the Burmese, due largely to their frequent occurrence of finds, as well as their noted feeding on large Floridian predators and mammals, and discoveries of clutches, juveniles, and younger animals (Noting they have established themselves and are thriving). All its doing though, is giving fuel to their fire. Really all we can do now is fight it :(

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great post:gj:

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

Things can turn around quick when a news (USA today) paper runs a front page article called "Pythons have us in their grasp" on 2-21-08. Then they use a bunch of hypotheticals to make people panic. I cancelled our subscription. When a paper writes a story that is based on possibilities and not fact, then puts it on the front page it makes me think they have an agenda and are not an unbiased news agency.

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Good for you. Did you tell them why you canceled? Also, it's not an agenda, it's about drama, readership, and the media hype. It sells. But it's still no excuse of them to do that. :colbert:

Here is an interesting article I just came across, I think it helps point out just how serious this problem could be. If they really did spread, even to a fraction of the map highlighted, they would have a serious effect on the environment and people.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0223111456.htm

FYI I think this is the 500th time something like this has been attempted and it's NEVER worked. They tried it in Arizona not long ago and it got shot down real quick. Once again it's a consensus which is open to the public and when the government sees how much money is pumped into a failing economy through the pet trade most notably the reptile trade is booming right now they will consider that as well. I'm not saying to not be weary or write in and voice your opinion because god knows I have but I think we'll all stand strong throughout the nation and keep our hobby safe. Think about it as it's an inconvenience to us to have to write letters or e-mails or sign petitions.. think about people who are truly busy.. they don't have time to put together information to support a reason for a ban. Most people could care less. You do have a few select uneducated people out there who are gung-ho about banning snakes as a whole but as long as the letters keep pouring in with fact based information instead of irrational fears... I'll leave the rest to you...

You know the two facts that are being ignored are

1. The burms in the Glades ain't going to migrate very far north. They won't make it to VA like some of those stupid maps say. There is nothing preventing them from going north in Asia and they don't. Why? Weather below freezing is FATAL to them.

2. It is not even people letting them go that created the problem in South Florida. That is one of the biggest lies since the false passing of the 16th amendment (for those that don't know it created the income tax). You see most of the burm population in South Florida has its' roots in Hurricane Andrew in 1992 when many burms were "freed" by houses being blown flat.

With Florida being a meca for importing reptiles many got away. After more then 15 years now a healthy breeding population has built up. There are more every year because of BREEDING not released animals. This is the same in Cozumel there are boas everywhere from 8 released in the 70s.

Even we in the community are wrong to blame "Irresponsible Keepers" for this issue. Sure some of that happens but the massive numbers set free by a natural disaster are the seeds of the Burm population in South Florida. You have to ask yourself this as well, why only Burms? Why are there not boas, retics and bloods all over the Glades if it is "Irresponsible Keepers". Could it be because Burms are perfectly adapted for the Everglades and therefore self supporting at this time? You bet it is.

Here is what I mean by they won't move north, this map is the natural range of the Burmese Python.

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/Re...-Python-RM.gif

Notice the did not move into central China, Afghanistan, etc. They are not heading for Moscow, etc after tens of thousands of years with no real boundaries. Why? Climate!

The Burms in the Glades are bad for the Glades but they are not going to be "coming to an area near you" as Fox News reported just last week. There really needs to be some accountability in the fricken media.

I read some of that article. Here's a quote from it

"Several endangered species,' he noted, 'have already been found in the snakes' stomachs".

The thing is, no one cares how the species got to be endangered in the first place. They are endangered because of habitat destruction, pollution, hunting etc., and thats all okay if its done by humans but the second a python decides to make a meal out of some endangered bird its an outrage. My point is no one cares about the endangered species until a big scary snake starts eating them.

Well thats my rant on the subject for today. Keep up the good fight everyone.

-Austin

THAT'S HORSE CRAP!! Stupid crybaby bleeding heart liberals!!:mad::O:rage:

I spend most of my posting time over at freedom reptiles, but decided to come over here and comment on this:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0223111456.htm

This is one of the articles about the USGS survey deal... I wrote the editorial staff and the site this response:

I am writing in regards to the article 'Python Snakes, An Invasive Species In Florida, Could Spread To One Third Of US'. This article is borderline fear mongering, and some fact checking is an order. Almost all of the species in question require quite warm weather year around, just one or two freezing nights WILL kill them. The given area may support these snakes most of the year, but they won't make it through winter in nearly all of the given zones. Even with the climate warming there will still be sufficiently cold periods to kill almost all snakes in question. If you are going to write an article about this issue, please give a balanced view. Do a little research.

Also, I believe pollution, urbanization and development, and hunting from native species are more dangerous to those endangered species than several hundred newly introduced snakes. Don't shift blame from the real causes of endangerment, to a scapegoat that is an easy target because people have, often times, baseless fears about.

Yet another point. The map cited was made by the USGS, a geological survey. This doesn't seem a credible source to make sweeping statements about the suitability of the environment for exotic species. Maybe a couple herpetology experts, or reptile keepers would be good sources for climate suitability?

All that being said, I realize much of this is quotation from other sources and not your direct opinion. Even so you can present the other side of the story instead of just taking just one side and running with it.

There is a large community of reptile keepers that are upset about the biased views that have been presented on this subject. It would go a long way toward mending your standing with this community if you would present a new article offering both sides of the story. I would even be willing to write an article on the subject for you

I would love to hear from you all about your position on this matter.

Thank you,
Joshua R. Bissell

We'll see if they do anything... Are there any other media sources I can contact and offer them some info? These are the things we need to confront, all issues are tried in the media. People react when they see '250 lb killer coming to you neighborhood', so we need to make our voices heard in the media, not just by the powers that be. Also, are there any updates on what's happening with this whole issue?

Supposedly either this weekend or next there will be a 'summit' in Chicago of the more well-known snake breeders, and I hope that one of the attendees of this summit will address this question for me and others like me:

As a snake owner or small collector, what should we be doing?

I have read and heard what breeders or people with large collections can do (all the data collecting), but as a little guy I'm confused as to what I can do for the cause to fight the USFWS proposal. So if you happen to be attending this upcoming summit, can this please be addressed and reported back to us? People like me don't have much influence, but what we lack in influence we make up for in our numbers! :D

Thank you!

-Kerig

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J.Bissell

I spend most of my posting time over at freedom reptiles, but decided to come over here and comment on this:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0223111456.htm

---

Joshua,
Thank you for writing that letter to Science Daily!
Sadly though if you do a quick Google Search you'll see that this 'garbage science' study by the USGS (with our tax money, mind you) was picked up by the media and left-wing Global Warning groups and they have had a field day with it!
:mad:

Giant Python Could Be 'Health Hazard for Small People' in USA

Burmese Pythons Might Invade One Third of US

Giant Constrictor Snakes Invade Florida

Hope you like pythons: Climate conditions in southern U.S. perfect for invasive constrictors' spread

Python Snakes - An Invasive Species In Florida

Snakes on the plains: Pythons slither across U.S.

Pythons are warming up to America

Snakes alive! Burmese pythons could be headed our way

Pythons Will Colonize U.S.

Oh, and my favorite...

Global Warming Will Cause Giant Snakes to Take Over America
(nice photo...)

And that's just a few...

So it looks like the damage may already be done...and we never even had a chance to defend ourselfs...all thanks to the USGS! :(

Many of those articles use extrapolations on current global warming trends..."by 2042, the southern half of the united states will have warmed XYZ degrees, allowing pythons to migrate even further north"

Yeah, except for the fact that according to the temperatures in their data much of the US will be underwater due to the melted polar ice caps! Last I checked, pythons didn't have gills.

JonV

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kerig3

Supposedly either this weekend or next there will be a 'summit' in Chicago of the more well-known snake breeders, and I hope that one of the attendees of this summit will address this question for me and others like me:

As a snake owner or small collector, what should we be doing?

I have read and heard what breeders or people with large collections can do (all the data collecting), but as a little guy I'm confused as to what I can do for the cause to fight the USFWS proposal. So if you happen to be attending this upcoming summit, can this please be addressed and reported back to us? People like me don't have much influence, but what we lack in influence we make up for in our numbers! :D

Thank you!

-Kerig

---

I reccomend suporting PIJAC. They fight alot of the rediculous pet laws that come up.

in addition to writing letters in response to the proposal, we need to make sure we are writing our senators and state representatives. if they get enough letters, they will fight with us. they just need a LOT of letters from concerned citizens. i fully plan on writing my letters to my senators and the USFW in a few days. with the numbers of outdoors people we have in michigan, the senators almost have to pay attention.

remember liberals, its your asses in the hot seat now, don't screw up!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

I reccomend suporting PIJAC. They fight alot of the rediculous pet laws that come up.

---

Although PIJAC doesn't support the pet hobbyist, and their data gathering forms are geared towards the breeder, manufacturer and other such businesses. You can read about what PIJAC plans to do here, and their data gathering survey is here.

As for the upcoming summit, I'm hoping that what the hobbyist can do to help is addressed.

As for writing to your reps in congress, that may be premature since the USFWS is only in its data gathering stage, and this isn't yet a ban proposal, so they'll simply refer us to follow the steps of the outlined by the USFWS, which doesn't address the hobbyist. In fact PIJAC's website states:
NOTE: Even though it published in the Proposed Rules section of the Federal Register, this is NOT a rulemaking proposal - it is only a fact finding initiative.

And it's been made very clear that just voicing our opinions isn't going to make a difference. :(

If you want to really know where this topic stands, please read the Panel Discussion chat that was conducted on Feb. 29th with a USFWS rep., PIJAC rep., and many top python and boa breeders. The full transcript is here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nevohraalnavnoj

Last I checked, pythons didn't have gills.

---

Nor do snake breeders and hobbyists...unless Kevin Costner collects snakes... ;)

is this too threatening?

I do apologize, because I believe I've done almost everything ya'll stated I shouldn't (prior to reading the rest of the Thread) at least if it is I'd post it so others can see an example of not what to do, just was a little fired up.

I strongly disagree with the proposed snake ban. It is nonsense to wipe out the trade, obliterating an entire genre of business in this "free" country, god forbid, damaging the economy yet even further, taking away the dreams of millions of entrepreneurs, makes me sick to my stomach. I understand that certain snakes need to be regulated better, however snakes like my Ball Python will never be a threat to anyone in anyway!

I say enough with criminalizing the public!

Whatever officials who are leading this proposition should be well informed herpetologist, otherwise I will have a hard time taking it seriously and will undoubtedly keep my liberties and my pets.



James