Man feeds puppy to boa.. wait... what?

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Originally Posted by qiksilver

this isnt really going anywhere.

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Hehe, nor will it ever go anywhere, as too many people are arguing from a purely emotional standpoint and logic will never enter that realm.

I think Ben made an excellent point that seems to have been ignored by almost everyone. What's to stop those who think bunnies and rats are adorable from making it cruelty for those to be fed?

If the man is being charged with cruelty for the neglect of the snake, I support that. Otherwise, it's a threat to the herp world in general.

Scientists Don't Like Mice

I think in society it's became the norm to know that people with snakes feed these types of food to thier snakes(mice/rats/rabbits/ect.)..It's not the norm to be feeding puppies..And i would tend to believe thier are people who care and like rats as pets on this very site, as we do our snakes...that also understand the natural prey for the most part our these animal that they love so much. so the out look on snakes eating them isnt the same as a puppy.just my :2cent:

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Originally Posted by SarahMB

Hehe, nor will it ever go anywhere, as too many people are arguing from a purely emotional standpoint and logic will never enter that realm.

I think Ben made an excellent point that seems to have been ignored by almost everyone. What's to stop those who think bunnies and rats are adorable from making it cruelty for those to be fed?

If the man is being charged with cruelty for the neglect of the snake, I support that. Otherwise, it's a threat to the herp world in general.

Scientists Don't Like Mice

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Societal norms change all the time. When I was little (anecdotal evidence time!), it was perfectly acceptable in my community to drown bags of unwanted kittens or puppies. These days that will get you jail time.

Personally, I like my rats much better than any dogs. Yes, it does upset me that people feed rats, but I wouldn't want to restrict their right to do so. Others out there will want to do just that, though. What is that saying about "first they came for my neighbor, and I did nothing...then they came for me and no one was left to do anything..."? Something like that, anyway.

as will feeding a puppy to a snake..I wouldnt want to restrict anyones right of anything, as those people should not restrict the laws right to put them in jail. in this case for feeding off a puppy..


just sayin..:D

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Originally Posted by SarahMB

Societal norms change all the time. When I was little (anecdotal evidence time!), it was perfectly acceptable in my community to drown bags of unwanted kittens or puppies. These days that will get you jail time.

Personally, I like my rats much better than any dogs. Yes, it does upset me that people feed rats, but I wouldn't want to restrict their right to do so. Others out there will want to do just that, though. What is that saying about "first they came for my neighbor, and I did nothing...then they came for me and no one was left to do anything..."? Something like that, anyway.

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Originally Posted by jar2476

as will feeding a puppy to a snake..I wouldnt want to restrict anyones right of anything, as those people should not restrict the laws right to put them in jail. in this case for feeding off a puppy..

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This doesn't make any sense to me...

dogs are protected by law unlike most other animals such as cats and others. If you hit one with your car you have to report it.

I just want to say that what some peoples morals are aren't what others morals are. I'm not sure everyone is taking this into consideration. Just because you think it is wrong to feed a dog to a snake and somehow different from feeding a rat/rabbit/mouse to a snake doesn't mean everyone thinks that way. Neither does this mean that either is right or wrong. This argument will go on forever because everyone has different morals and opinions and no one is changing theres based on what someone else says. So I think we are just arguing in circles.

i have to admit.... i did not read all 15 pages of this thread.... but, wow. i know that if you take an objective look at it, feeding a dog to a snake really isn't any worse than a rat, chicken, rabbit, etc. but it really just seems wrong to me. i can't imagine watching my snake eat a puppy. let alone inviting the neighbor kids over to watch the show!


and cooking oil??? i guess i don't know much about this, but i can't see how that would be very good for a snake.....

One more thing was the dog live or dead?

i feel the same way. whats is the big deal with it as i don't see it as beig cruel to any animal that is feed to a snake because that is what they eat live prey that they kill and eat. now was it wrong to feed a dog to a snake yes but not cruel. right now down in Florida there are burms and gators that are feeding on dogs it's in there nature to feed and the snake could care less if it's a dog rat or what ever as long as it's feed.

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

That man is flipping insane to feed a puppy to a 8ft boa, oh heck, a snake of any size. Let alone to coat it in cooking oil and have two teenagers watch presumably for the sole purpose of amusement.

However, playing devils advocate, how is feeding a puppy any more cruel than feeding a rat or bunny or fetal pigs? Do dogs have that extra layer of feelings that other animals don't thus making it worthy of charging him with animal cruelty? I am by far not saying people should even consider feeding their snakes dogs, but to me the essence of that law seems bogus. I think people who do feed like this have a few screws loose and probably shouldn't be owning pets anyways (taking into point the fact the boa was taken from his possession due to neglect).

The only thing in this case that I believe worth prosecuting is the coating of oil and the show he put on for the teenagers.

JUST TO MAKE IT CLEAR, I DO NOT SUPPORT HIM FEEDING PUPPIES! I THINK IT'S SICK, I JUST DON'T SEE HOW IT'S LEGALLY POSSIBLE TO PROSECUTE HIM FOR DOING SO

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The dude is a moron. One for coating it in oil and two for putting on a show in front of minors. For that alone he should spend a few evenings in jail.

I would think coating it in oil has to be abuse/nelgect for the snake, I mean as we talk about what is or isn't the proper diet for a snake I don't ever recall seeing that any snake likes it's food in crisco. Who knows the effects that has on the snake.

I see dogs and cats as family pets and I feel it's not right to feed them to anything, that being said feeding a puppy, bunny, rat or pig to a snake is one in the same. As for puppies not being the proper food for a snake explain that to a friend of mine who's burm got loose for about a week in his neighborhood before he could finally catch it and when it had a bm a nice cute little collar w/ a tag was in it. I know if I owned a large snake and had small dog or cat or puppies/kittens I would not leave two alone together because most large snakes can't read to know what their correct food source is suppose to be.

Tis true in other parts of the world dog, cats and even snakes are considered a normal food source for humans, heck in a few remote parts of the world w/ some tribes humans are considered a food source. Different strokes for different folks and different cultures.

I feed live to my snakes and I cringe everytime I do it but I do it because it comes w/ the ownership of reptiles. Feeding any mammal to a reptile or any thing else is one in the same rather it's a dog or a rat.

I tend to agree that this just adds another pin to the doll of us who own snakes. Bad owners and snakes who eat puppies is how this will get spun.

The fact that he is an adult abusing animals is scarey to me as there is far to many studies that show adults who torture and abuse animals have a greater chance of doing the same to humans ie serial murders, rapists etc.
And then to being doing this in front of 15yo kids is unacceptable.

On a whole different level was it wrong to feed the puppy to the snake anymore than having be unclaimed or casted off and taken in to be put down?
The results are the same.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jotay again.

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Originally Posted by monk90222

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jotay again.

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I must ask, what does this phrase mean? I always see it used against users with the most valid points in their posts.


Anyway, one man's pet is another man's pest.

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Originally Posted by Grim91Z

I must ask, what does this phrase mean? I always see it used against users with the most valid points in their posts.


Anyway, one man's pet is another man's pest.

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It means that the person who posted it has given positive rep points to that person already and has to spread the love before giving that person more prp's.

:rockon:

Here's the thing. LEGALLY is it more cruel to feed a puppy than a rat or rabbit? Does it cause more pain/distress? I think that's subjective--and it's where we soft-hearted humans, who see dogs as "man's best friend", start anthropomorphizing. Surely our smart dog would feel more trauma and pain than some rat or rabbit. A rat being constricted to death, a rabbit being constricted to death, we can imagine they have some distress--they're having the air squeezed our of their lungs--but more or less than a puppy? Who knows? I tend to think that it would be a similar experience for rat, rabbit and puppy.

I think the "cruelty" part would be that the puppy was coated in oil first--I'd think someone was being cruel if they doused live rats in oil before feeding, too. I think that if he was being charged for cruelty for neglecting his snake and for coating the puppy in oil first, that would be just. If he had stolen the puppy from someone in order to feed it to his snake, then that's robbery and he certainly should go to jail.

I think the point of contention from the get-go in this thread (and that got a tad clouded with emotion from we soft-hearted lovers of animals) was that this man WASN'T being charged with cruelty for neglecting his snake or for dousing the puppy in oil before feeding and he wasn't being charged with robbery (we don't know where the puppy came from--for all we know it was a stray, doomed to die in a week from malnutrition and neglect), but that he was being charged for animal cruelty for feeding a puppy--period. It wouldn't have mattered if the puppy was doused in oil or if it was fed in front of children, the man still would have been charged with animal cruelty. I think it was being brought up as something to think about, not a pro-puppy-feeding campaign or a pro-puppy-feeding-bad-snake-owner campaign. Why are the distinctions made, why do we feel as we do for some animals and not others, and at what point might snake owners have to worry about getting "normal" live feeder animals for fear that feeding them off will now be considered "animal cruelty".

That said, we do tend to have a certain attachment to the animals we care about. Anthropologists tend to think that man and canine have peacefully co-existed in a symbiotic relationship for many thousands of years. Humans provided food and a warm place to sleep, canines protected the humans--pretty sweet deal. Because the relationship has existed in this way, and because dogs have been domesticated for so long, it doesn't surprise me that we feel abhorrence at the idea of a puppy being fed to anything: human, reptile or otherwise.

I'm not familiar with any ancient civilizations domesticating rats or rabbits, through a symbiotic bond over the course of thousands of years and remaining to this day...which could explain why we make the distinction.

I've gone onto a bit of a ramble and basically typed things out as I was thinking them--I apologize if it's hard to wade through :) My mind is sometimes a disorganized place.

Yes, a major part of the cruelty thing is simply a double standard based on emotional issues. It is a matter of which animals we've decided are pets and which are pests. In Australia, for historical reasons, many regard cats as pests and will even set fatal traps for them.

I made a joke a while back about feeding live kittens to my BP to save money on buying mice and I got a negative feedback from someone claiming that I was joking about animal cruelty. I don't believe there is any argument that can justify that as animal cruelty over feeding live mice, rats, or rabbits. But, to them there is clearly a line.

Then, of course, there might be some that argue that feeding F/T is more humane than feeding live. To me, that is simply a matter of "out of sight out of mind". Similar to your average meat consumer. We all eat meat but few of us are conditioned to the actual butchering experience.

In the end, humanity is ultimately a matter of opinion. While there is a loose concensus amongst most people, the details will vary. Likewise, the negative responses inhumane practices generate are ultimately due to the discomfort EXPERIENCED BY THE PEOPLE through sympathy. That is what is so disturbing about this guy's little show is that it seems almost purely designed to upset people. It's value as a feeding session is clearly dubious.

i don't think the article ever mentioned that the cruelty charge was BECAUSE the snake was fed a puppy. they said they were already investigating the mistreatment of the snake when they came upon this information. i think the article is just more focused on that because, obviously, it's getting more attention than the fact that this guy doesn't know/care what he's doing.

There's so many posts here I don't have the patience to read them all but I wanted to throw my two cents in on the subject. I appologize if some of this has been mentioned before.



I agree what the man did was wrong and should be punished.
1. He used cooking oil. Cruel to the dog, cruel to the snake.
2. The dog was most likely a pet.
3. The snake was mistreated.
4. There's a wide variety of other feeding options available that a snake would be more apt to eat and that would be more socially acceptable.
5. He had adolescents watching.

Feeding a dog to a snake is kinda like eating a Cow Vs. eating a horse. I don't see a difference. Both are livestock and both are of roughley the same intellegence. However, most people would cringe at the thought of eating a horse, but would not think twice about eating veal. Something inside me tells me its wrong to feed a dog to a snake, but I don't think it's moral. I think it has to do with me growing up with dogs as pets. If I had grown up with mice as pets and dogs as snake food, things would be different. Society sees dogs as cute and cuddely and mice/rats are vermin. I think that's the whole difference.

I feel that it is wrong, but I must ask myself how is feeding a dog to a snake any worse than we humans slaughtering millions of chickens, pigs, and cows? It's really not.

Austin

lets see was feeding a puppy to a boa a good idea ? Probably not, Morraly right or wrong lets leave it at that, do I want the government any where near reagulating what my snakes can or cant eat or how I should feed it to them,not at all.In the end if basckily comes down to mother natures rules the stonger eats the weaker and survives those are the only rules of nature. As to the issue of wether its' right or wrong to eat dogs and cat's its not our culture dosn't mean they need to change it to make our simple little cultural norms feel better.If we as a nation want to make it illegal in this country to eat cat's and dog's then we can pass a law hopefully it's not 51 to 49 percent victory margin. This is within our right as it shouldn't be allowed that some other country pass laws outlawing somthing we enjoy smiply becasue it's strange in their culture. For a group of people who supposedly have open inquistive minds, They do seem to get closed awfully quickly when they come into ideas that are beyond their cultural norms.This is the basic thought pattern that causes other nations to be unfriendly towards this country, and we have noone but ourselves to blame now will we. So lets agree to disagree treat eachohter with respect and as much dignigty as possiable and consider and respect our cultural differnces and try and make this world a happier place to live for all.

Sick man obviously. He was neglecting the snake too....

Damn, I'm not entirely sure there is anything too wrong with it tho. Too many times I've been called a sick mofo for letting a rabbit meet the end of a baseball bat for george...

HAHA, I dont know how I missed this post. I am a volunteer with the Phoenix Herp Soceity and we have that boa. Its a pretty nice boa also. The owner of PHS had to take the snake to the court room once or twice. I know she told me that the first time he was a no show. When Ryan (PHS snake removal vol.) went to get the snake; he said it was like if sombody had been killed. They had crime scene tape up, detectives taking pictures left and right.

(And note that the HAHA was just becauseim suprised it found its way here. I was NOT laughing about what happened)

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Originally Posted by PJ FF

HAHA, I dont know how I missed this post. I am a volunteer with the Phoenix Herp Soceity and we have that boa. Its a pretty nice boa also. The owner of PHS had to take the snake to the court room once or twice. I know she told me that the first time he was a no show. When Ryan (PHS snake removal vol.) went to get the snake; he said it was like if sombody had been killed. They had crime scene tape up, detectives taking pictures left and right.

(And note that the HAHA was just becauseim suprised it found its way here. I was NOT laughing about what happened)

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alright! we have an inside source! lol... so, was the cruelty charge because of the puppy or mistreatment of the snake? the article wasn't very clear about that......

Haha, limited inside source. I would ASSUME the puppy. They probably would care (court) nor know if the jack ... hadnt done it in front of the kids.

well, what do u know about the puppy? was it newborn, someone's pet, a stray? any idea?

ben,

i am very impressed with how well you handled yourself in this thread.

everyone... nice to see a good discussion - i love it when people THINK!!!

:D
Aleesha

Oh Aleesha, your such a doll! :D

Just doin what I can...

off the topic but i luv ur avatar ben! it reminds me of the marshmallow guy on ghostbusters!!! lol:rockon:

sounded to be mor elike a newborn.

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Originally Posted by python.princess

well, what do u know about the puppy? was it newborn, someone's pet, a stray? any idea?

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didn't the article say... "3 month old puppy" - that's 12 weeks

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

didn't the article say... "3 month old puppy" - that's 12 weeks

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It stated a 3 week old puppy. That would be a little to young to be away from it's mom. He must have had a dog w/ a litter or knew someone who did or snatched from a stray w/ a litter.

guess i missed that part....:P

thanks jody!

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I sometimes coat myself in oil before feeding.

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http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...neh-to-mez.jpg

I find it odd that no one takes into consideration what the age of the puppy means. Most mice and rats fed to snakes are late adolescent or adult. newborn rodents unable to crawl or see yet are often not sold for snake feed. As an adult, a rat or mouse and even rabbits are easily overtaken by such a large predator. This indicates that these are a natural form of pray, in the sense that snakes are higher on the food hierarchy. Now, a late adolescent or full grown dog, depending on the breed , is actually above above snakes in the food hierarchy. Snakes would also be unlikely to encounter dogs in the wild. Do snakes on the African Savannah take down hyenas? I think the most important thing to consider is that the puppy was helpless. Even if the snake had gotten loose and gotten into someones basement where a litter of 3 week puppies were, the puppies would have their mother to at least attempt to defend them. Instead, a 3 week puppy, too young to walk, see or bark, was taken away from its mothers protection, lubed up, and fed to a pet snake . Wrong for both animals involved. The reason people think it is wrong and yet cant explain why isn't our close friendship to canines. It is simply unnatural for an animal to eat above itself in the food hierarchy.

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Originally Posted by tatertot2887

I find it odd that no one takes into consideration what the age of the puppy means. Most mice and rats fed to snakes are late adolescent or adult. newborn rodents unable to crawl or see yet are often not sold for snake feed. As an adult, a rat or mouse and even rabbits are easily overtaken by such a large predator. This indicates that these are a natural form of pray, in the sense that snakes are higher on the food hierarchy. Now, a late adolescent or full grown dog, depending on the breed , is actually above above snakes in the food hierarchy. Snakes would also be unlikely to encounter dogs in the wild. Do snakes on the African Savannah take down hyenas? I think the most important thing to consider is that the puppy was helpless. Even if the snake had gotten loose and gotten into someones basement where a litter of 3 week puppies were, the puppies would have their mother to at least attempt to defend them. Instead, a 3 week puppy, too young to walk, see or bark, was taken away from its mothers protection, lubed up, and fed to a pet snake . Wrong for both animals involved. The reason people think it is wrong and yet cant explain why isn't our close friendship to canines. It is simply unnatural for an animal to eat above itself in the food hierarchy.

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May just be me, but I don't believe the age of the puppy has any bearing on the issue. I believe a snake large enough to kill an adult human, 8+ ft, is a snake that could hold it's own and take down a wild dog from an ambush position. And seeing as boa's, and many large pythons get considerably larger than 8+ft then I'm not so sure dogs are higher on the food chain in all circumstances. However you say that newborn mice/rats/bunnies arn't commercially fed to snakes? Here you are dead wrong. Many people here feed their bp's rat pups, or pinks, and their cornsnakes mice pinks. Newborn rodents are a staple in the herp feed industry. Once again, I am not supporting the feeding of the puppies, however, as Genivive put it, meat is meat when it comes to a hungry snake.

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

Many people here feed their bp's rat pups, or pinks, and their cornsnakes mice pinks. Newborn rodents are a staple in the herp feed industry. .

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uhmmm yes.

what he said.

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

Once again, I am not supporting the feeding of the puppies, however, as Genivive put it, meat is meat when it comes to a hungry snake.

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I agree...meat is meat to a hungry snake.

I just don't believe that he fed his snake the puppy because 'it was hungry'.

:oops:

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

I just don't believe that he fed his snake the puppy because 'it was hungry'.

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Even if he did, why feed a puppy? It is unnecessary really when their are plenty of available feeder options such as rats/mice/rabbits etc.

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

May just be me, but I don't believe the age of the puppy has any bearing on the issue. I believe a snake large enough to kill an adult human, 8+ ft, is a snake that could hold it's own and take down a wild dog from an ambush position. And seeing as boa's, and many large pythons get considerably larger than 8+ft then I'm not so sure dogs are higher on the food chain in all circumstances. However you say that newborn mice/rats/bunnies arn't commercially fed to snakes? Here you are dead wrong. Many people here feed their bp's rat pups, or pinks, and their cornsnakes mice pinks. Newborn rodents are a staple in the herp feed industry. Once again, I am not supporting the feeding of the puppies, however, as Genivive put it, meat is meat when it comes to a hungry snake.

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I agree and I will add in terms of animal eating above it's self in the food chain ie a snake, happens quite a bit. A waterbuffalo would be higher on the chain as would say a 'gator?? Both have been consumed by large snakes.

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Originally Posted by daaangconcepts

Even if he did, why feed a puppy? It is unnecessary really when their are plenty of available feeder options such as rats/mice/rabbits etc.

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true.

If he couldn't afford to feed it a meal then he should have given it to someone who could.

I would like to know where he even got the puppy.

I am just sayin' that in a snakes eyes...meat is meat.

I guess it all tastes like chicken to them! lol..

totally just kiddin!

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

I agree...meat is meat to a hungry snake.

I just don't believe that he fed his snake the puppy because 'it was hungry'.

:oops:

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Atleast we agree on something. lol :D

[QUOTE=jeffnme]true.

If he couldn't afford to feed it a meal then he should have given it to someone who could.

IQUOTE]

bottom line!