ECLARK - mites

I'm wondering why he had racks listed for sale that could have been used to house new arrivals safely away from animals that were no longer his.


Anyway, Ed, call me all the names in the book you want but I am bailing on the Angolan. Just doesn't feel right anymore and I apologize for this in advance.
Fire away. I'll admit I bailed on you and take the heat for it. If people hate me after bailing on you, so be it.

On another note,
I need your addy to ship you the reptarium you bought since there is no address listed on the paypal payment or if you prefer, I can issue an immediate refund.

Let me know.

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Originally Posted by SPJ

I'm wondering why he had racks listed for sale that could have been used to house new arrivals safely away from animals that were no longer his.


Anyway, Ed, call me all the names in the book you want but I am bailing on the Angolan. Just doesn't feel right anymore and I apologize for this in advance.
Fire away. I'll admit I bailed on you and take the heat for it. If people hate me after bailing on you, so be it.

On another note,
I need your addy to ship you the reptarium you bought since there is no address listed on the paypal payment or if you prefer, I can issue an immediate refund.

Let me know.

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No one will flame you. Your concern for the care a breeder is providing for an animal you are paying for is totally understandable. Regardless of our options its your investment not ours.

I originally decided not to chime in here but I've noticed a lot of people either don't read the entire posts, or they forget stuff they read earlier.

Ed does practice quarantine, but he purchased from a well known breeder and assumed that he didn't need to because he trusted him. You know what they say happens when you assume. Ed made a mistake, and he admitted it.

Ed does move many snakes, and I for one don't see anything wrong with that. Ed helps people with problems, but his tends to be more towards PMs. I've talked to 3 or 4 people on here who've gotten help from ed via pm as opposed to in the post itself. As long as Ed continues his quarantine procedures and does not let his guard down by trusting a breeder any more this should not be a problem.

With the comment about the "gift that keeps on giving" my wife and I are at ends here as well. Being a customer service manager I believe that the comment was not meant in a harsh way, but was in poor taste. I do not believe Ed meant harm by the comment and it was his way, after saying he was sorry, to make light of a bad situation. I do this in real life, but when it comes to customer service all of my training says it's a big no no. My wife on the other hand likes these kind of comments as long as an apology is in a place. For example. I work in hotels and we recently stayed at a hotel that had bed bugs. It's happened in my hotels at a time or two and I know it's not something that you know about a head of time and well sh*t happens. We go down after 1 night with bite marks and itchiness and they switch us to a new room. After apologizing the manager gives us our new room keys and chuckles before saying: Hope you don't have any uninvited guest nipping on you tonight. The next morning the front desk person says, "did you stop itching long enough to get to sleep!?" Now, I think both comments were in very poor taste, from a customer service aspect you do anything and everything to rectify the situation and those kind of comments are NO good! My wife laughed at both the comments and said they both made her feel better about the situation. Ed may think like my wife and thought he was making the situation better and unknowingly made it worse!

As to the shipping more than one snake per bag, although some people do not agree, I know 2 other breeders besides Ed who practice this. Some people don't agree, and I myself would not want my snakes both shipped int he same bag. Although I would bet dollars to doughnuts that if you were buying 3 or 4 snakes from Ed and requested each be in a different bag, he wouldn't tell you know. As you all said, the bags are a dollar! I don't see him turning down a 3 or 4 snake deal to save himself 2 or 3 dollars.

As far as April's recuperations, I would say a can of PAM or two or the funds to purchase them. If any further outbreak of mites or possible disease should arise then it should be dealt with then, but seeing as currently no snakes have died from IBD and no other mites have been spotted, I don't believe much more talk about that should be entertained. If Ed wants to bend over backwards to try and make the situation go away faster there is more he could do but that's his own decision.

I personally will still buy from Ed in the future, assuming he has the snake I'm looking for at the right price. He will be considered just as much as I would consider other breeders I hold in high regard! Ed I view you as a good breeder and I would hope that you would not let this one incident prevent you from your current trading/buying/selling practices. During this hard time try your best to keep your head up.

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Ed does practice quarantine, but he purchased from a well known breeder

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Would everyone please knock this off, it's retarded....I dont care who or where those snakes came from, they obviously weren't quarantined properly. Quarantining is not rocket science, nor is it a sometimes type of thing...either you do it, or you dont, regardless of the source ;)

Provided the mites did actually enter his collection in the manner in which he described (well, one of them ;))

exactly.:gj:

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Originally Posted by Uncle Festae

Would everyone please knock this off, it's retarded....I dont care who or where those snakes came from, they obviously weren't quarantined properly. Quarantining is not rocket science, nor is it a sometimes type of thing...either you do it, or you dont, regardless of the source ;)
Provided the mites did actually enter his collection in the manner in which he described (well, one of them ;))

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Originally Posted by Uncle Festae

Would everyone please knock this off, it's retarded....I dont care who or where those snakes came from, they obviously weren't quarantined properly. Quarantining is not rocket science, nor is it a sometimes type of thing...either you do it, or you dont, regardless of the source ;)

Provided the mites did actually enter his collection in the manner in which he described (well, one of them ;))

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Well said. It sounds like Ed is trying to dodge responsibility for his actions....I have yet to see him offer any proof of where the mites came from (and if you can't prove it, I'd keep other peoples' names out of your mouth) nor an offer for compensation to April. What great customer service! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Adam's quarantine and business model is worlds better. I also have no doubt that Adam would have bent over backwards to make sure that his customer had satisfactory resolution, which Ed has not done, according to April. Just saying.

Quality vs. Quantity, Justin.

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I wasnt talking about the way they do things....

Im talking about them as people!!!

OH MY GOSH!!!!
I wish there was a slaping smilie.... Im not the one who brought up Adam vs Ed thing!!!! Im not going to explain myself anymore.

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

I told april that because that is what I believed at the time, not unheard of bringing in mites from live rodents from a pet shop.

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If you buy your feeder rodents from a pet shop, and at the same time state that getting hitchhiker mites from rodents purchased at a pet shop is not unheard of, I would guess that quarentining snakes will not assure that you don't get mites. I would suggest a closed breeding colony of feeder rats.

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

Everything is in seperate rooms. baby room, stuff for sale is another room and the main collection is like a no mans land. there is no way that if something like this happens that it could infect everything!

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

The protonymph stage lasts from three days to two weeks. This stage is mobile and may move considerable distances. Protonymphs are able to detect and are attracted by the smell of snakes. They require a blood meal to metamorphose to the next stage.

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As posted by frankykeno, and by someone prior, mites could have fallen off one of the snakes as it was being bagged, it could have gotten on your hand/arm as you bagged them, and onto the floor.. they are now on the move heading for other rooms in your house/building. Once you get mites and treat your snakes, that is not the end of mites.

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

..it is common practice to ship more than 1 snake in a LARGE cloth bag.

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I personally think when dealing with a high end morph that is already stressed from the shipping, it would make more sense to bag them individually to give them some form of security. You can do it the way you want to do it, as you stated, but people have a right to know and choose to buy from you or not, based on that knowledge.

For stangs13: http://forum.explosm.net/images/smilies/slap.gif (Here ya go)


Rick

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Originally Posted by stangs13

I wasnt talking about the way they do things....

Im talking about them as people!!!

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Do you know them as people? I think this thread is out of control... :2cent:

I bought a snake from Ed months ago and she is fine, someone just got two with mites, that sucks! I'm sorry this happened to you, I am sure we will all be the wiser for it. Hopefully only positive things will result from this unfortunate incident. Thanks for sharing. There was a time I didn't take quarrentine as seriously as I do now and I am once again (as always) re-evaluating my techniques to make them better and safer. The info gained on this site is as important to the rookie as it is to the experienced keeper who has fallen into a false comfort zone. :(

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

For stangs13: http://forum.explosm.net/images/smilies/slap.gif (Here ya go)


Rick

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Thank you Rick...

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Originally Posted by juddb

Do you know them as people? I think this thread is out of control... :2cent:

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I have never seen there faces in person know, but I have spoken to both of them before, actualy alot! Enough to know there personalitys. And they are both top notch guys!! Now I need to stop.

yeah im not trying to dog you out man... Just so you know... I do think Ed is a pretty stand up guy though...

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Originally Posted by juddb

yeah im not trying to dog you out man... Just so you know... I do think Ed is a pretty stand up guy though...

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Understood. I am just really really grumpy.

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

Robin, why would you be stating that I have no quarantine practices when you know absolutly nothing about me, after that statement others followed your lead and echoed the same lie?

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Because you admitted that you put two new animals into a rack with established animals - YOU said it, YOU admitted it. I didn't type those words for you.

Shelby,


Just as a tip... I would spray a thin coat of PAM on the floor around your racks. This will keep any mites from getting at your other snakes if they had fallen off the infested snakes prior to treating.

Make sure to keep the kids, pets, etc.. away until the PAM is dried.

Sorry to hear about your bad experiance.

Rick

You know this could have been quickly solved and probably never ended up in this Feedback Forum if the following had happened:

Customer: The snakes you sold me have mites.

Seller: I'm terribly sorry to hear that. I will immediately check my collection. Thank you for notifying me of this situation. What can I do to make this right with you?

Pretty easy wouldn't you say? It would have opened a private dialogue and resolved an issue between breeder and customer probably to each person's satisfaction and we'd have never been involved. This was not done and hopefully Ed and others will learn from this.

There's a lot of lessons in this thread and I think one of them is to consider customer care as important as the care you give the snakes you are offering for sale.

Let me explain my aversion to mites and why I am so nervous when I hear about them since some people think I am being a #%@!@ about this.



Roughly 4 years ago I was shipped a boa that came in COVERED with mites. It looked like black velvet on the snake. The bag it was shipped in was black inside due to how many mites were present. I had never seen that many mites on one animal before or since then.

I did not have any PAM available and did not know about the substitutes found at Walmart at the time. I placed the boa in QT downstairs away from my other animals upstairs and ordered PAM via overnight shipping (cost a bundle but I needed it ASAP).

I soaked the snake several times and the tub was filled with mites after each soaking.

Unfortunately, by the time the PAM did arrive, the snake was dead.
I had been in contact with the seller since the time the boa arrived and was told TS. No refund, no remorse from him.

About a week later, I noticed a few animals in my collection upstairs soaking which was out of the ordinary for them. I found mites in the bowls.

I cleaned and sprayed EVERYTHING and got rid of the mites. I have not seen one since. I even spray down new mulch in a seperate tub now just as a precaution before it goes in to replace the mulch in the current tubs.

Somehow the mites went from downstairs to upstairs on my clothes, shoes, who knows what and got into my main collection even though I did not touch a single permament animal the entire time I was workign on the mite infested boa.

Mites spread. I had a $200 boa die because of mites. I am very leary about spending $1000 plus on an animal that may have mites. The thought of going thru that fiasco again sickens me and God forbid the new addition had mites and somehow, even by quarenteening it, they somehow got into my main collection.

That is just a chance I am not willing to take.

Sisco what part of maine are you located at lived in the portland area for a few years...

just my 2 cents,
mites are a crappy thing to get on your new shipment, and probably really put a damper on the whole experience, i know i would be disapointed to say the least. and i dont want to stick up for anyone, as a matter of fact i would probably never buy from ed for totally unrelated reasons (too bad too cause he has a pied group for sale that had it been another seller i probably would have bought).
but
as i see it he NEVER dodged the issue. he acknowledged his mistake, he answered questions, and took blame for it. it seems to me that he has stated that he has a quarentine policy, yet he got a bit complacent and (my own words here) "dropped the ball" because he got the problem animals from a trusted source. he admits this and states plainly that it will not happen again. if we take ed at his word, that this was a one time exception and not the normal way he does things, AND since he has not dodged the issue, or blamed the buyer, he admitted fault, he made a promise that complacency will not get the better of him again... since he has done pretty much everything we could expect of him, isnt it time to let it go and feel better knowing we all have learned something here, rather than beating all this into the ground? as i see it the original poster did a service by pointing this out, and Ed has accepted responsibility for it and wont let it happen again. if it does, then shame on him. but given the fact that he seems to have a pretty good track record, other than this one deal, his word should be good for something, imho.
as for the flip statements about the gift that keeps on giving, well some people type before they think (myself being one) and i bet Ed wishes he had not typed that now, and as for making things right with the original poster, I am sure ed might want to do something to smooth things over, but that is not our business (in my opinion) and should be between them.
again, just my ramblings

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Originally Posted by juddb

Sisco what part of maine are you located at lived in the portland area for a few years...

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Near Skowhegan (between Bangor and Waterville)

Rick

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

Near Skowhegan (between Bangor and Waterville)

Rick

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yeah i know where thats at , i went to some festival with some friends there.... Out in the styx man... But thats cool :salute:

Isn't this the exact reason why anyone who buys an animal quarentines that animal? Even if the seller is Ed Clark.:)

~mike

Ed screwed up. We all need to evaluate our quarantine ethics over seeing what this thread has become. I think we ALL got the idea that buying or selling, if you are here on this site, you know better and have all the knowledge at your finger tips. This horse isnt beaten. It's a pile of goo with flies on it. I see the direction of the thread gettin locked. Let's just let it go. It has run its course.

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Originally Posted by wildlifewarrior

Isn't this the exact reason why anyone who buys an animal quarentines that animal? Even if the seller is Ed Clark.:)

~mike

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Quarantining is only partially effective for packages that come in with mites. It's hard to separate the snake in a different room if the mites will just crawl out of the bin, through the room, out the door and seek other snakes in your collection. This is not even considering the mites that come off the packaging or the snake bag and end up on you, the counter, the table, the floor, etc.

If the mites were adult and visible the moment the package arrived, you would think they would have been noticed during pre-packing inspection by someone with the experience Ed has.


Rick

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Originally Posted by Vomitore

It's a pile of goo with flies on it..

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HAHA

~mike

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Originally Posted by doyle033

as i see it he NEVER dodged the issue. he acknowledged his mistake, he answered questions, and took blame for it. it seems to me that he has stated that he has a quarentine policy, yet he got a bit complacent and (my own words here) "dropped the ball" because he got the problem animals from a trusted source. he admits this and states plainly that it will not happen again. if we take ed at his word, that this was a one time exception and not the normal way he does things, AND since he has not dodged the issue, or blamed the buyer, he admitted fault, he made a promise that complacency will not get the better of him again... since he has done pretty much everything we could expect of him, isnt it time to let it go and feel better knowing we all have learned something here, rather than beating all this into the ground?

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Sounds like a plan to me.:rockon:

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Originally Posted by SPJ

Sounds like a plan to me.:rockon:

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Me too!:salute:

Um...as far as we know Ed hasn't made anything right with April. :confused:

If it were me I'd offer reimbursment for the price of PAM, or any other bills incurred in the event that April has to treat her whole collection.

-Jason

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

Shelby,


Just as a tip... I would spray a thin coat of PAM on the floor around your racks. This will keep any mites from getting at your other snakes if they had fallen off the infested snakes prior to treating.

Make sure to keep the kids, pets, etc.. away until the PAM is dried.

Sorry to hear about your bad experiance.

Rick

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Actually I did that right away.. I also sprayed the doorway to the quarantine room. I changed my clothes and scrubbed my arms down too.. hopefully none stuck to me and hitched a ride elsewhere. Only time will tell.

Ed has offered a can of provent-a-mite, which I accepted.

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Originally Posted by Shelby

Actually I did that right away.. I also sprayed the doorway to the quarantine room. I changed my clothes and scrubbed my arms down too.. hopefully none stuck to me and hitched a ride elsewhere. Only time will tell.

Ed has offered a can of provent-a-mite, which I accepted.

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Fantastic!! This means that its all god in the hood?:sunny:

I hope Ed has learned to be more diligent in both quarantine, and checking snakes over before sending them out. So long as the mites do not spread to my other snakes, I am content.

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Originally Posted by Shelby

I hope Ed has learned to be more diligent in both quarantine, and checking snakes over before sending them out. So long as the mites do not spread to my other snakes, I am content.

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Agreed!

But what can he do about stoping the mites from moving? This isn't ment to be rude question at all...btw.

good to hear april. i'm glad everything has worked around to your satisfaction.

and i'm sending (((no mite))) vibes to your home!!! :hug:

Thank you for the update April. I will keep my fingers crossed that the damage has been controled and your collection will stay mite free.

He can't do anything about that, but I did everything I could to prevent them from spreading. It is his fault I have them in the first place, so that's the point.

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Originally Posted by Shelby

He can't do anything about that, but I did everything I could to prevent them from spreading. It is his fault I have them in the first place, so that's the point.

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Ah..ok I get it. Good luck!!

Update.


Ed has assured me that this was a fluke one time accident and that the Angolan has no mites and was never exposed to them. He explained his setup and exactly what happened.

Based on this information, I have told him our deal will continue.

I will update on how this goes.

Ed, 1 mite, and %$%$#

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Originally Posted by Shelby

It is his fault I have them in the first place, so that's the point.

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Good point period :rockon:

Personally, I bought from Ed and would again. Mites happen.. I seriously doubt that Ed said "oh! Look! This snake has mites.. let me ship it to someone that I share a popular forum with, and jeopardize my reputation there.." :)
I am glad that Ed is sending you some PAM, Becky. A few months ago, I got mites from a bag of aspen, and Ed actually sent me a can free (it was before I ordered the snake from him.)
I ajm glad that things appear "cleaned up" now in the thread.. if anything, hopefully it is a lesson to us all that STRICT quarantine procedures can NOT be ignored or allowed to slip..!
This business, I believe moreso than others.. depends SO crucially on customer references and happiness with their purchases.. I hope that people don't look at Ed like the devil for this.. honestly, it could happen to you or anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I got mites from a bag of aspen

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Say what?

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

A few months ago, I got mites from a bag of aspen

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Mites were obviously hitchhiking on/in this bag. I would concider using caution at the shop the aspen was purchased from. Mites will hitchhike on anything they are crawling on when you pick it up, but the mites will not stick around if there is no food source.

Rick

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

Mites happen..

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No they don't. Not with the proper precautions.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

A few months ago, I got mites from a bag of aspen

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This was covered in another thread. The bugs that sometimes come IN aspen bags are wood mites and are completely harmless to your reptile.

If you got SNAKE MITES, an invasive species of mite native to southeast asia, then they came from the pet store that the bag of aspen was stored in. Period.

There's a huge difference between the two that should be pointed out here.

And April is not Becky(who is me), just to clarify that ;)

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

And April is not Becky(who is me), just to clarify that ;)

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Sorry; I can be such a complete dweeb sometimes..! :oops:

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

This was covered in another thread. The bugs that sometimes come IN aspen bags are wood mites and are completely harmless to your reptile.

If you got SNAKE MITES, an invasive species of mite native to southeast asia, then they came from the pet store that the bag of aspen was stored in. Period.

There's a huge difference between the two that should be pointed out here.

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Well the aspen bag was opened and sitting by snake cages..

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

Mites were obviously hitchhiking on/in this bag. I would concider using caution at the shop the aspen was purchased from. Mites will hitchhike on anything they are crawling on when you pick it up, but the mites will not stick around if there is no food source.

Rick

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I don't shop there, or any pet stores that stock herps really, anymore.. no need to.

How can you guarantee elimination of mites with one treatment? Doesn't it sometimes take weeks for eggs to hatch? Until they hatch how will you know the extent of the contamination?

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

Everything is in seperate rooms. baby room, stuff for sale is another room and the main collection is like a no mans land. there is no way that if something like this happens that it could infect everything!

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Baby room, stuff for sale and main collection. Funny you never mentioned a quarantine room.

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

I had a small mite problem in a few tubs in a 20 unit baby rack that was quickly treated and completely eliminated!

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This happened in your "for sale" room, how can you guarantee a couple mites didn't get on other racks in the same room? How can you still try to sell animals with the slightest chance of sending mites?