How Low?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssscales

Maybe we could try and get back on the discussion.
How low will they go?


Is there any solid guesstimates?

For example,
Albino Boas have dropped from $1000-$1200 on average to $600-$750 in the last 2yrs. I estimate Albino Boas may come down to $500ea on average next year and should hover around that price for the next 2-3, maybe even 4yrs.


Motley Boas may drop from $4500-$5000 to $3500 on average next year and will be expected to stay above $2000 for another 3-4, maybe even 5yrs.

Of course, quality and other variations play a role in pricing, but on average that's my expectation and anticipation on these Boa morphs.

Would anyone have thought Lessers would have come down from $20,000 to $5000 and even $2500 in less than a year?

Spiders from $5000 to $1000-$1500, Mojaves from $4000 to $800-$1400, Albinos from $2500 to $1000-$1500? Why?

What are your guesstimates and expectations for certain BP morphs within the next 1-3-5yrs? How low will they be driven and why? Is this supply & demand driven? Has the demand died down or has the supply increased so much to justify a 70%-90% drop in price by some/most of the breeders in less than a year?

As for why MKR dropped prices? My guess is about $70,000 in quick sales, who knows.

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I think a lot of the price dropping has to do with over supply, at some point you get a lot of breeders suddenly appearing on the scene for the first time. Which makes for a very competative market and a number of these new sellers are market inexperienced and you get the price war effect amongst them.

When you see the market flooded with more and more sellers that are not the big timers like RDR, NERD etc they can have an effect on pricing. They will at some pont be able to force the big names to drop their prices somewhat because of their sheer numbers. You can't hold out forever at a higher price and keep seeing customers go elsewhere.

The bigger names will always cost you more because you are buying reputation and a name with the anmal.

Nothing wrong with that!

But when you have a lot of sellers peddling the same product, you have to expect prices to come down.

Notes:

-this thread is over 100 posts long and not one larger scale breeder on here has posted.

-a name is selling high end morphs at rediculous prices

-the name + his partner are doing it

-they want to give back to the customers

-most of the stock was already bought up by a breeder to prevent some nonsense

-they stated there are too many of these co-doms/doms. that they weren't rare, and were willing to sell the animals at an insane discount regardless to the fact that there is still a demand for those animals at high prices.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shhhli

Notes:

-this thread is over 100 posts long and not one larger scale breeder on here has posted.

-a name is selling high end morphs at rediculous prices

-the name + his partner are doing it

-they want to give back to the customers

-most of the stock was already bought up by a breeder to prevent some nonsense

-they stated there are too many of these co-doms/doms. that they weren't rare, and were willing to sell the animals at an insane discount regardless to the fact that there is still a demand for those animals at high prices.

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You won't see large scale breeders posting on here, simple as that!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Personally, I think they're just dumping all of their males and will be getting all of the females up to weight as fast as possible. Next year or the year after they will probably flood the market with white snakes for $1,000 a pop. :confused:

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My guess is they'll take another dump next year and in 2-3 years will have another large dump with Lessers around $1000-$2000 and about $5000 for those white snakes. :O

I don't think they dropped prices do with limited space, the older most of these morphs get the more their worth. The rule usually is, price your snakes and let them sit!

If they don't sell at $5000 as a baby, they cost you little to feed and will sooner or later sell for that $5000, if not more. Either as a juvi, yearling or sub, sooner or later they will sell for that $5000. I don't think it was space, I think it had to do with dumping some stock and making a quick buck.

Why waste time looking for 50 $5000 buyers over a 6-9 month period when you can drop to $2500 and have 100 buyers knocking down your doors. I would've preferred to price them slightly lower or in his case at least par with the Jimmy's and have let those snakes sit till they were sold.

It may have taken them 3-6-8 months, but they would've moved and at twice the money!

Just my opinion!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

You won't see large scale breeders posting on here, simple as that!

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Of course not. Thats why they're the large scale breeders, they learn to ignore stuff like this and not let it ruffle their feathers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shhhli

Notes:

-this thread is over 100 posts long and not one larger scale breeder on here has posted.

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You forgot 100 posts of speculation.

It is fine and dandy for us to speculate all day long about the motives of this move but it's pure speculation at this point.

Contact MKR and ask Wes or Joe to post here and clear things up. If they do this then it will be up to you to take it for what it's worth. I think the truth is more simplistic than it appears :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cueball

You forgot 100 posts of speculation.

It is fine and dandy for us to speculate all day long about the motives of this move but it's pure speculation at this point.

Contact MKR and ask Wes or Joe to post here and clear things up. If they do this then it will be up to you to take it for what it's worth. I think the truth is more simplistic than it appears :cool:

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I agree. It would be nice to hear what the source of all this has to say and end all the various points we could throw around all day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cueball

You forgot 100 posts of speculation.

It is fine and dandy for us to speculate all day long about the motives of this move but it's pure speculation at this point.

Contact MKR and ask Wes or Joe to post here and clear things up. If they do this then it will be up to you to take it for what it's worth. I think the truth is more simplistic than it appears :cool:

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Very true, I think the truth is very simplistic.... they crapped on everyone!

lol. i meant more like, people here who have more..ish.. anyways. call all you want, people dont always say whats in their mind. not to get crazy on anyone- im just saying. and if his only reason is to 'give back' that's total bs and he knows it.
mewl.

I could care less why one lone private breeder would undercut and dump prices. Prices have been dropping for months, Jimmy's undercutting each other week after week on KS driving prices lower and lower.

MKR gets more attention since they are/were considered a solid somewhat big name BP breeder in the ranks of RDR, NERD, VPI, etc. They made huge investments buying stock from RDR, NERD and the rest of those breeders and built a name for themselves within 5-6 years. All of a sudden, out of the blue they dropped a bomb by dumping prices to a new low!

In the end, I think MKR just hurt themselves. I don't think that these animals will lose some major value unless he's able to really vamp it up and get them into the hands of Jimmys. And if they did, the Jimmys are crazy to sell at that price, even they SHOULD know they could get so much more. I could see 600 out of 1200 for them, but to sell at even half that would be 12500.
Eh.
I'm running low on .02$. I think i need to start leaving that extra 0 i keep mistyping lol.

The possible concern is, I'm sure any Jimmy with a couple Mojaves to sell (not knowing if MKR has 2 or 20 left), may start dropping their price from $1400 to $1000 to $800 as well to compete. This could be the real problem, get 2-5 Jimmy's nervous and in a panic with 5-10 or 15 Mojaves to sell and they may start back pedaling even further/faster!


The sooner those MKR ads run out, the better!

ssscales: ;-;

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssscales

The sooner those MKR ads run out, the better!

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Exactly! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cueball

You forgot 100 posts of speculation.

It is fine and dandy for us to speculate all day long about the motives of this move but it's pure speculation at this point.

Contact MKR and ask Wes or Joe to post here and clear things up. If they do this then it will be up to you to take it for what it's worth. I think the truth is more simplistic than it appears :cool:

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The only thing I know is what I was told BY JOE himself. And you can read what I wrote on up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

The only thing I know is what I was told BY JOE himself. And you can read what I wrote on up.

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Exactly. :3

they didn't do it for money, they have enough. it's not like they needed a little more to pay the utilities! they timed it before daytona for a reason! and they screwed their previous customers for a reason too! this is not a supply and demand issue, it is one breeder dumping on 2 morphs(mojo's/lessers). they do not have enough to flood the market and "crash" anything. it is not to point of a semi-truckload of mojo's/lessers headed to petco! lol if everyone else does the right thing, the market and supply and demand will take care of itself.



vaughn

Wow 90% off that's ridiculou's , that's as dirty as it get's. I'm staying with recessive's I think it's safer. I doubt this guy will show up at daytona I don't think it would be a nice trip. Plus he probably sold everything anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kavmon

they didn't do it for money, they have enough. it's not like they needed a little more to pay the utilities! they timed it before daytona for a reason! and they screwed their previous customers for a reason too! this is not a supply and demand issue, it is one breeder dumping on 2 morphs(mojo's/lessers). they do not have enough to flood the market and "crash" anything. it is not to point of a semi-truckload of mojo's/lessers headed to petco! lol if everyone else does the right thing, the market and supply and demand will take care of itself.



vaughn

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Exactly, supply and demand should iron things out because someone stepped in and bought as much as possible so that these animals are not all over the place.

As for what MKR has to say about its reasons, don't expect the truth. They are irrisponsible, shouldn't be trusted with any future new projects and are now the biggest jimmy ever!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sho220
Fortunately I love these critters because they look cool and have great personalities!!!

Come on $350 SPIDERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shhhli

so you're the only one? don't you care about the effort others have put into this and spent years on? that's what pisses me off the most, people thinking "oh i can buy this and its mine and i can do whatever to the market that i want" well forget that! You didn't hunt down these animals, you didn't first work to test their genetics, basiclly i find it EXTREMELY disrespectful to the people that came before you.

Now this is all my way of thinking, and the end.

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Welcome to the world of free trade. If you want to protect your morphs, patent them!!!!!!!!!!!! It is that simple!!!!! We do it in the plant world everyday!

I also look forward to the day my son can buy a spider at a reasonalbe rate.

no one is saying that prices shouldn't drop each year and season. supply and demand will do that own it's own. no 75% drop in 6 months is needed. there is no flood or mass production of morphs floating around. go to your local reptile stores,petcos,zoos,etc. you don't see bp morphs laying around!


ps, no one has publically acknowledged buying these animals or receiving them yet??? this could all be bs, before the big show? usually people post pics of animals they just bought or are in process of getting. time will tell, this could be just a way for some rich guy to mess with people?


vaughn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kavmon

there is no flood or mass production of morphs floating around. go to your local reptile stores,petcos,zoos,etc. you don't see bp morphs laying around!

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That's cause of the good 'ol Internet...Plenty of them floating around there!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbkd

Quote:
Originally Posted by sho220
Fortunately I love these critters because they look cool and have great personalities!!!

Come on $350 SPIDERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






Welcome to the world of free trade. If you want to protect your morphs, patent them!!!!!!!!!!!! It is that simple!!!!! We do it in the plant world everyday!

I also look forward to the day my son can buy a spider at a reasonalbe rate.

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$350 dollar Spider's are many year's away if they ever get that low.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emilio

$350 dollar Spider's are many year's away if they ever get that low.

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350 was just a number I was throwing out there...I doubt they get that low...mostly cause they're so cool looking...I would think 500 would the bottom...

for discussion let's play with some #'s. i.e. say there are around 1 million people into reptiles worlwide. 10% are into snakes (100,000) 10% of them are into bp morphs

(10,000). half of them will buy some kind of morph, 5,000
show me 5,000 morphs for sale. this is just an example numbers are not accurate, but the worldwide market for reptile hobbyists is bigger than kingsnake and the demand is still more than we can produce. try to hatch 40 morphs and tell me how easy it was, then try to make 1000 of them.



vaughn

Supply and demand will iron this out, sure, but when?

I might be mistaken, but how many ads on KS or anywhere have 06 Spiders for $4000? How many sellers/breeders period can still get $5000 for an 06 Spider or $4000 for an 06 Mojave or $20,000 for an 06 Lesser? How about $3000 for an 06 Albino?

Will it iron itself out for 2007?
Do you think it will hold on at $1500 for 07 Spiders or $1400 for an 07 Mojaves or how about a stable $1500 for 07 Albinos?

When will it iron itself out and at what $$$ more or less?
This is the million dollar question!!

Call me crazy, but somehow I don't think what we've seen in the past 6-7 months including this week is due to supply and demand!

I think it's mostly due to a mentality of everyone for themselves and I'm getting mine while I can attitude! Compounded by somewhat short term, somewhat selfish thinking with an extra sprinkle of why compete with other sellers when I can sell at a lower price and still make a good chunk of $$$.

Get yourself 10-20-30 sellers on one site with similar thinking and you've got a 90% reduction in price in 6 months!

Or you could be right in that no one really wants Ball Pythons anymore, they were just really overly inflated to begin with, and the demand did not justify the supply being pumped out by new breeders, and everyone started dropping prices all together.

My opinion, Ball Pythons are still too damn hot and still climbing to lose 90% in 6 months because supply & demand! Sellers have crapped all over Ball Pythons, not the other way around!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kavmon

for discussion let's play with some #'s. i.e. say there are around 1 million people into reptiles worlwide. 10% are into snakes (100,000) 10% of them are into bp morphs

(10,000). half of them will buy some kind of morph, 5,000
show me 5,000 morphs for sale. this is just an example numbers are not accurate, but the worldwide market for reptile hobbyists is bigger than kingsnake and the demand is still more than we can produce. try to hatch 40 morphs and tell me how easy it was, then try to make 1000 of them.



vaughn

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There are plenty out there...on just the first page of KS there were at least 24 Spiders and at least 20 Mojaves...We also have faunaclassifieds, reptileauctions and all the individual breeder websites...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbkd

Quote:
Originally Posted by sho220
Fortunately I love these critters because they look cool and have great personalities!!!

Come on $350 SPIDERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






Welcome to the world of free trade. If you want to protect your morphs, patent them!!!!!!!!!!!! It is that simple!!!!! We do it in the plant world everyday!

I also look forward to the day my son can buy a spider at a reasonalbe rate.

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Well, someone woke up on the sarcastic side of the bed today.
Anyways, You dont see this kind of crap going on in other places of the market now do you (unless youre talking about baseball cards, but they didnt start mass producing their rare cards for cheap for their customers).
You kind of took what I said out of contextt- you're putting it a frame of mind that i did not intend. See: Word Twisting. You make it seem like I'm against 'free trade' what I am against, and what im complaining about:
1) Someone with Alternative reasons (in my book anyway- there's no rational explination, he's giving back to the customers? bs. he knows what will happen if he sells a high end for low.)
2) Someone else is all giddy'd up about the market sinking in a particular area so they can snatch up what they want. That seems harsh or me I guess, but it came out that way at the time. I'm not mad at sho220 or anything like that. Just that post at that time

IMO: this is a business, a market. but its also people. this isnt cars or playstations- its living animals and the people and their love. For someone to trash and disrespect that- well, i guess I'm a goody-too shoes to think that if people kept their heads that there could be something in it for everyone.

Patent a bp. Yes, that is it. Even though that makes absolutly no sense. How in the world can you set up a patent that if the animal is redistributed that it can only be sold at X. Genius. Even if someone else Wild-catches the same morph.

Excuse me for taking MKRs actions as insult to people who did all the work for him to dump. For disrespecting the people he buys from and sells to. (see two paragraphs above)

And as for your son- apparently 2 grand is a reasonable price right now, that's its current value or around in. Okay then.

And whatever, reply to this if you will. Im burnt out on this post, Thanks for the responses.

When will it iron itself out, hell if I know!

But I just hope it goes back to the gradual slide.....


It's so cut throat!! And a lot of people are willing to cut anyones throat including their own in the name of $$$ and pure greed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssscales

Supply and demand will iron this out, sure, but when?

I might be mistaken, but how many ads on KS or anywhere have 06 Spiders for $4000? How many sellers/breeders period can still get $5000 for an 06 Spider or $4000 for an 06 Mojave or $20,000 for an 06 Lesser? How about $3000 for an 06 Albino?

Will it iron itself out for 2007?
Do you think it will hold on at $1500 for 07 Spiders or $1400 for an 07 Mojaves or how about a stable $1500 for 07 Albinos?

When will it iron itself out and at what $$$ more or less?
This is the million dollar question!!

Call me crazy, but somehow I don't think what we've seen in the past 6-7 months including this week is due to supply and demand!

I think it's mostly due to a mentality of everyone for themselves and I'm getting mine while I can attitude! Compounded by somewhat short term, somewhat selfish thinking with an extra sprinkle of why compete with other sellers when I can sell at a lower price and still make a good chunk of $$$.

Get yourself 10-20-30 sellers on one site with similar thinking and you've got a 90% reduction in price in 6 months!

Or you could be right in that no one really wants Ball Pythons anymore and they were just really overly inflated to begin with and the demand did not justify the supply being pumped out by new breeders and everyone started dropping prices all together.

My opinion, Ball Pythons are still too damn hot and still climbing to lose 90% in 6 months because supply & demand! Sellers have crapped all over Ball Pythons, not the other way around!

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AMEN! eventually, these people imo that get less and less money for the morphs because they keep SCREWING themselves over are going to see less and less profit. Eventually things like .. oh.. IRS will show up- and people will drop like flys- HOW MANY BREEDERS HAVE SAID HAVE A BUSINESS PLAN. Do you think any of these KS, Fauna, Etc breeders that are selling their animals under big name breeder's prices have made money flow charts, set up business plans, written drafted rewritten and etc on their intake and expenses? NO.
As far as prices:
I see a decrease in some animals.
I think the ones in the 5grand below that are co-dom will probably go a bit lowere. Things will IRON themsevles out once these people finally fail or get tired of keeping all these animals, these mouths, cleaning poop and taking bites for 200$ and 300$ that they're getting and even less when they get the IRS on their tails.
Once the smoke clears and the BP market clenses itsself of the idiots, I think some animals will, yes, be much cheaper.
Its sad considering all these morphs are 10 years and less. But look at the future- we have double recessives to look forward to. Triple recessives further on down.
There's no end to how far you can go with genetics, and there is no way that we've discovered about four dozen morhps in just 10 years and think all the ink is out of the pen. Morphs now will dwindle- but there's always the Next Big Thing, and those breeders now that are busting their butts to do what is right for the market, themselves, and customers are going to be there with the trades and the proceeds to get these future babies. Then the Jimmys will come back (not that they've ever been gone) and things will cycle.
So eventually, i see a few of these morphs dropping yes- I honestly think some will get just a hundred or so above normals. But i think there will be ladders in prices. Things will drop. Others rise.

Sorry for the rambles, I get from one topic to the next and hope it had some ideas or something worth reading. I tend to get in trouble on forums (especially political omg.) about having the topic and then wandering off. *_*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shhhli

Patent a bp. Yes, that is it. Even though that makes absolutly no sense. How in the world can you set up a patent that if the animal is redistributed that it can only be sold at X. Genius. Even if someone else Wild-catches the same morph.

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A (legal) agrument might be able to be made for designer morphs....they dont occur in nature. Then a licensed agreement to breed would be require from the owner of the intellectual property. It a bit of a stetch though.....

For a patent to be issued on a pet, it would likely have to have some genetic engineering in it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

For a patent to be issued on a pet, it would likely have to have some genetic engineering in it.

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i.e. the GloFish

http://www.glofish.com/about.asp

" Why are GloFish® the only fluorescent fish that can be sold in the United States? Because fluorescent fish are unique, their sale is covered by a substantial number of patents and pending patent applications. The providers of GloFish® fluorescent fish, 5-D Tropical and Segrest Farms, are the only distributors that have the necessary licenses to produce and market fluorescent fish within the United States. The production of fluorescent fish by any other party, or the sale of any fluorescent fish not originally distributed by 5-D Tropical or Segrest Farms, is strictly prohibited."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

i.e. the GloFish

http://www.glofish.com/about.asp

" Why are GloFish® the only fluorescent fish that can be sold in the United States? Because fluorescent fish are unique, their sale is covered by a substantial number of patents and pending patent applications. The providers of GloFish® fluorescent fish, 5-D Tropical and Segrest Farms, are the only distributors that have the necessary licenses to produce and market fluorescent fish within the United States. The production of fluorescent fish by any other party, or the sale of any fluorescent fish not originally distributed by 5-D Tropical or Segrest Farms, is strictly prohibited."

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Mendel's Balls, if you dont quit busting my chops i swear.
Honestly though, you always have some good stuff to share- you're the most tenacious researcher i've seen in a while.

I see how it could be done, but some of these morphs IE pastel were found in the wild first by Graziani and then by NERD. Would they then need to patent each individual line seperatly and give them seperate names? What about if i took a Graziani patented pastel and bred it to say a clown. Would the patent still hold some work with the babies that are pastel with clown het? its a different animal genetically....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shhhli

Mendel's Balls, if you dont quit busting my chops i swear.
Honestly though, you always have some good stuff to share- you're the most tenacious researcher i've seen in a while.

I see how it could be done, but some of these morphs IE pastel were found in the wild first by Graziani and then by NERD. Would they then need to patent each individual line seperatly and give them seperate names? What about if i took a Graziani patented pastel and bred it to say a clown. Would the patent still hold some work with the babies that are pastel with clown het? its a different animal genetically....

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I'm no lawyer butI only think that you could possibly do it with a desinger morph...clowns are base morphs right?

My general point was just because something is living doesnt mean you can't patent it.

And this licensing agreement stuff may not fit with a good (small) business plan...but who knows almost anything can be coporatized eventually.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

I'm no lawyer butI only think that you could possibly do it with a desinger morph...clowns are base morphs right?

My general point was just because something is living doesnt mean you can't patent it.

And this licensing agreement stuff may not fit with a good (small) business plan...but who knows almost anything can be coporatized eventually.

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I'll poke around Lexis-Nexus tomorrow and see what similar cases, if any, are out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shhhli

Patent a bp. Yes, that is it. Even though that makes absolutly no sense. How in the world can you set up a patent that if the animal is redistributed that it can only be sold at X. Genius. Even if someone else Wild-catches the same morph.




Like I said this is done everyday in the plant world. My real job is as a plant broker. We have tons of folks that travel the world searching for new and exciting plants, then we have those like me that that do crosses and breed new plants. Once a plant has been patented nobody, by law can propagate that plant without paying a royalty to the breeder/finder. Almost all those pretty little plants you see in the garden centers these days have had a royalty of $.01 to $5.00+++ paid on them to the breeder. The average is about $.40 a plant. You sell a few million and things add up quick. Just my firm alone sells more than a million of one variety and there are more than 50 brokers just on the Mid-Atlantic states. We also have what we call the 'flower police' and these are agents the check to see if growers are paying royalties, if they are propagating any plant material. We also have licensed propagators that are the only ones legally aloud to propagate certain plants. A great example of this is the 'Proven Winners' line of plants. www.provenwinners.com There are only 3 greenhouses in the whole country that can propagate their plants. So a BP breeder could protect their lines if they wanted to. And yes, you can patent DNA.


The real question comes in when you barrow another breeders DNA to create a new morph. You can protect this with a patent but most just try to keep their projects ahead of everyone else’s.

I really don't want to see this happen in the reptile world. It could kill some really neat programs out of greed (as I have seen happen in the plant world).
I still ask the question of 'How many $10,000 - $30,000 snakes can possibly be sold?' That’s the average yearly household income for most Americans. Study, after study, have shown that the true collectors & hobbyist of the USA are middle to low income households. I think the post about how there may be 5000 buyers for these high-end morphs, is along the lines of what I am saying. But I think the # of buyers for the high priced market is a lot lower. Plus unless you are the seller or buyer, you really don't know what the snakes are really selling for.


As for what this breeder did or 'POSTED' we really don't know why. Can anybody even confirm that the snakes were even sold???? or how many????? and I mean CONFIRM as in seen the snakes leave the breeder to the customer. You can do anything you want on paper or by phone, but until the product has been delivered the transaction is not complete.

That being said...I don't think the patent idea would be a good one at all. The guys over in Africa would be the first to "own" many newly discovered morphs and if you think morphs are expensive now, imagine having to send a check to Noah everytime you sold a Yb, pastel, hypo, whatever. The breeders wouldn't just take the hit, they'd just pass it on to their buyers.

Yes, its not very plausable and far fetched atleast. Not to say someone with a penchant for greed and no interest in snakes couldn't catch on. But that's just some crazy novel idea.

I think it seems pretty impossible for patents to work in regards to bps. Not that the concept isn't plausible but how exactly are you going to enforce the paying a roylaties when the bp market is so highly traded. With new comers all the time, trades highly routine practice, and many operations running out of people's homes. Seems like there would be a lot of room for people to deal behind closed doors to avoid paying royalties. Unless there were authorized distributers but that would completely kill the spirit of the hobby.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbkd

Quote:


Like I said this is done everyday in the plant world. My real job is as a plant broker. We have tons of folks that travel the world searching for new and exciting plants, then we have those like me that that do crosses and breed new plants. Once a plant has been patented nobody, by law can propagate that plant without paying a royalty to the breeder/finder. Almost all those pretty little plants you see in the garden centers these days have had a royalty of $.01 to $5.00+++ paid on them to the breeder. The average is about $.40 a plant. You sell a few million and things add up quick. Just my firm alone sells more than a million of one variety and there are more than 50 brokers just on the Mid-Atlantic states. We also have what we call the 'flower police' and these are agents the check to see if growers are paying royalties, if they are propagating any plant material. We also have licensed propagators that are the only ones legally aloud to propagate certain plants. A great example of this is the 'Proven Winners' line of plants. www.provenwinners.com There are only 3 greenhouses in the whole country that can propagate their plants. So a BP breeder could protect their lines if they wanted to. And yes, you can patent DNA.


The real question comes in when you barrow another breeders DNA to create a new morph. You can protect this with a patent but most just try to keep their projects ahead of everyone else’s.

I really don't want to see this happen in the reptile world. It could kill some really neat programs out of greed (as I have seen happen in the plant world).
I still ask the question of 'How many $10,000 - $30,000 snakes can possibly be sold?' That’s the average yearly household income for most Americans. Study, after study, have shown that the true collectors & hobbyist of the USA are middle to low income households. I think the post about how there may be 5000 buyers for these high-end morphs, is along the lines of what I am saying. But I think the # of buyers for the high priced market is a lot lower. Plus unless you are the seller or buyer, you really don't know what the snakes are really selling for.

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Its called the tragedy of the anticommons

Awesome article Mendel, gotta love wikipedia

I know, it is America, and entrepreneurs can sell things at any price that suits them.. but it does make me sad to see them going for so low. I mean, if one person starts doing this, other breeders could follow suit, and cheapen all of the morphs. Then I would feel for all those who really strived, saved up, and worked their butts off to own their morphs; cheapening them is pretty lowdown.
On the other hand, if it is just kind of a "temporary" thing, in which a big breeder really would like to get some good genes out there, that's cool; I know of people who raffle off top Quarter Horse stud fees for a similar reason.

Ralphie speaks... very interesting read.