Update on Fluffy's clutch + pics

Can't compete with a tomato sandwhich, those are my childhood favorites. But yea tomato sandwhich broke it down nice and easy and left me with nothing to say. So tushe. (sp?)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rapture

captive bred and raised animals would be in better health than a lot of wild specimens you could find. They are fed every week year-round as babies, and fed every week except for during cooling as adults. CB's would most likely not have internal or external parisites hindering their health as many of those in the wild do. Even if brooding was stressful on the female, wouldn't a CB specimen be better prepared for it health wise than a WC female?

I thought the more important results of the experiment were the condition of the babies in each group. The maternally incubated babies pipped sooner, absorbed more from the egg before hatching, came out of the egg faster, were more alert, and larger when compared to the artificially incubated babies.

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well i think you say it all here... :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

well i think you say it all here... :cool:

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I think agree to disagree will be the term of the day...

a new motto... of the month i think LOL

:D
off to eat a tomatoe sandwich... toasted of course! :D

Sounds good to me although I prefer mine with a pinch of balsamic vinegar

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rapture

I'm not sure what kind of information you'd need on the brooding females

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What I'd like to see is a study based on actual captive animals, using vermiculite or other more accepted incubating techniques. I'm very picky about research papers, as I've seen how people can manipulate numbers and findings to suit their purposes. Not saying that this has happened here, but it makes me a bit wary when looking at those studies. There are just so many different variables, that I'm afraid of what gets lost in translation .. so to speak. (from wild animals to captive - who's to say what the differences are unless they are physically measured) Plus it's only one study. I didn't see the other link. I will definitely check it out. Thanks.

Anyway, I really appreciate you bringing a very calm and thought out approach to this discussion. I think it's very stimulating. :gj:

I think I get what you mean... instead of assumingthe stats of the females collected, you'd rather see documentation on brooding females that are captive bred and raised in captivity so you can more easily apply the results to females of the same status such as your own?

And I appreciate any mature discussion/debate that we can all get differnet views from, and possibly learn some things, without anyone getting defensive or offended. I didn't even intend for this thread to be what it has become, but it's all good as long as we all respect each other's views and are as open minded as possible about it all.

Here are what the eggs look like today.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k1...ffyoneggs4.jpg

You can see what I mean about them losing their shape. They have been gradually caving in like that. I'm afraid maybe the humidty has not been high enough at times. The saturated looking areas at the corners of the folds scare me a bit. I think only those two eggs have those spots on them.

The last time I candled was about a week ago I think, and I didn't do it for long, but all I saw was a red glow and veins in the eggs, even the ones that look the worst.

I guess only time will tell what the results are going to be of these guys. This is day 52.

*crossing fingers and trying to be very very patient!*

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k1...1/pipping1.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k1...1/pipping3.jpg

There are babies in them there eggs!:pinkele:

Congrats rapture!

Awesome!!!!!

Wow their coming!!!!! That's too cool

YEEE HAAA!!!!
BIG congratulations!!!!

Steve

AWEsomeness! You must be SO excited!! :sunny:

Congratulations and good job. I'm glad to see everything has worked out.

Awww cute! Perfect shot too! Has any more babies pipped? Oh how exciting, and right on time too? Or a few days early? Hope all your babies come out!:)

Awesome. Theirs babies. Are there anymore? MORE PICS PLEASE

you literally took my breathe away!

congratulations congratulations :fest2: congratulations congratulations congratulations :fest: congratulations congratulations congratulations :wuv: congratulations congratulations congratulations :bday: congratulationscongratulations congratulations :pinkele: congratulations :sweeet: congratulations :fest2: congratulations :fest: congratulations :wuv: congratulations :bday: congratulations congratulations congratulations :pinkele: congratulations :sweeet: congratulations :fest2: congratulations congratulations congratulations :fest: congratulations :wuv: congratulations :bday: congratulations :pinkele: congratulations :bday:


congratulations how does it feel to be a :grandma:


congratulations :blowkiss:

Good for you, it must feel great that they came out just fine.

Your trusted your gut and did what you thought was best.

It must feel good hu?


And I would like to add my 2 cents.

Being a mom not a breeder though, being pregnant, giving birth, caring for eggs etc. Is stressful...who said it isnt and wasnt going to be? I wish when I got pregnant someone took my fetus, put her in a sterile environment and "raised her" so I could eat and rest the whole 9 months. You wanna talk about stress? Try throwing up 12 times a day for 9 months! Only to have to learn to nurse and take care of an infant on only 1/2 hour of sleep a day. She's 2 now and still I'm just as tired and stressed as the first day.

But even after all that, it was worth it. And I would do it 100 more times with out thought...why? Because I'm a woman and thats what my body was created to do for me.

I'm not saying a snake has any gradification after hatching her eggs herself or anything who knows. But wasnt she designed for this?

Were all saying "its in the animals best interest to put her eggs in an incubater" why not give her the one natural thing we can, while we have her living in this "plastic nature" I know taking a dogs pups away after birth induces stree in them, I even had a cat jump the fence into my waiting rottweilers and pitbulls mouths to get her kittens I had rescued.

I'm not saying snakes are like dogs or cats or people...but all the way across the board (excluding snakes in some peoples eyes) birth and taking care of there young is a process females do, and do better then any plastic box on most days.

If her eggs were left then yeah, if you felt it was right to take them and incubate them, then go for it.

But if a mother is holding onto her eggs and wanting to take her chances then why not let her know she is capable of this?

Obviously she knows what she's doing.
Birth is stressful end of story, stressful knwoing you could die from birth, your babies could die etc. etc.
Its a chance nature has set us up to take.

I believe everything happens for a reason. And Sapphire chose this way and it worked, she isnt breeding them for profit, so this way was best in her eyes. I could understand saying "do whats best for the snake and incubate the eggs" because while shes sitting on the eggs for 60 days, not eating or resting a breeder is losing money hu?

So who is doing whats best for the snakes? Breeders are creating more snakes, when there are millions looking for good homes.....hmmmm. And Sapphire over here is letting her little mama...well be a mama.

No one is wrong and no one is right, to each his own.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rapture

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k1...1/pipping1.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k1...1/pipping3.jpg

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WhooT-WhooT!! Where was my phone call?:mad: I would have been there in PJ's! Congratz hunE!:P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

you literally took my breathe away!

congratulations congratulations :fest2: congratulations congratulations congratulations :fest: congratulations congratulations congratulations :wuv: congratulations congratulations congratulations :bday: congratulationscongratulations congratulations :pinkele: congratulations :sweeet: congratulations :fest2: congratulations :fest: congratulations :wuv: congratulations :bday: congratulations congratulations congratulations :pinkele: congratulations :sweeet: congratulations :fest2: congratulations congratulations congratulations :fest: congratulations :wuv: congratulations :bday: congratulations :pinkele: congratulations :bday:


congratulations how does it feel to be a :grandma:


congratulations :blowkiss:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheAudOne

Good for you, it must feel great that they came out just fine.

Your trusted your gut and did what you thought was best.

It must feel good hu?


And I would like to add my 2 cents.

Being a mom not a breeder though, being pregnant, giving birth, caring for eggs etc. Is stressful...who said it isnt and wasnt going to be? I wish when I got pregnant someone took my fetus, put her in a sterile environment and "raised her" so I could eat and rest the whole 9 months. You wanna talk about stress? Try throwing up 12 times a day for 9 months! Only to have to learn to nurse and take care of an infant on only 1/2 hour of sleep a day. She's 2 now and still I'm just as tired and stressed as the first day.

But even after all that, it was worth it. And I would do it 100 more times with out thought...why? Because I'm a woman and thats what my body was created to do for me.

I'm not saying a snake has any gradification after hatching her eggs herself or anything who knows. But wasnt she designed for this?

Were all saying "its in the animals best interest to put her eggs in an incubater" why not give her the one natural thing we can, while we have her living in this "plastic nature" I know taking a dogs pups away after birth induces stree in them, I even had a cat jump the fence into my waiting rottweilers and pitbulls mouths to get her kittens I had rescued.

I'm not saying snakes are like dogs or cats or people...but all the way across the board (excluding snakes in some peoples eyes) birth and taking care of there young is a process females do, and do better then any plastic box on most days.

If her eggs were left then yeah, if you felt it was right to take them and incubate them, then go for it.

But if a mother is holding onto her eggs and wanting to take her chances then why not let her know she is capable of this?

Obviously she knows what she's doing.
Birth is stressful end of story, stressful knwoing you could die from birth, your babies could die etc. etc.
Its a chance nature has set us up to take.

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Oh where to start? First off, nobody ever said that they wouldn't hatch. Obviously maternal incubation is the only way possible to hatch eggs in the wild, right? What does you having a baby remotely have to do with snakes?

Quote:

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I could understand saying "do whats best for the snake and incubate the eggs" because while shes sitting on the eggs for 60 days, not eating or resting a breeder is losing money hu?

So who is doing whats best for the snakes? Breeders are creating more snakes, when there are millions looking for good homes.....hmmmm. And Sapphire over here is letting her little mama...well be a mama.

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What exactly are you talking about? Breeders are the problem here? :confused:

how did I know you would be the fist one to jump on me? ;)
I'm just saying, no one is right and no one is wrong, some people eat meat and some dont, some people say cats are better then dogs and others say dogs are better then cats..does that mean I should run up to them and tell them how wrong they are for eating meat and not likeing dogs? Hell no.

Its rare for me to ever talk or post any where when I know someone is going to get mad, I never want to ruffle feathers (or scales) I'm a peace maker at heart, but I was just sitting here reading your posts and couldnt help but notice you were getting pretty pissed at some points.

I was trying to cool the situation and get everyone off there soap boxes and back to reality, no one is perfect, there are always 2 ways to do something and were all human.

So by all means, say again 'where to start" and try coming off as the smartest person in the room.

If you cant figure out the connection between me having a child and being a woman, compared to a snake caring for a clutch them I'm sorry.

I agree with Jamie. We didn't say they wouldn't hatch, but were concerned about the increased risk of RIs due to increased humidity and the possibility of getting the female back eating faster (after losing a third of their body weight). Rapture decided that, after reading scientific articles, that he would achieve healthier neonates by allowing maternal incubation. No one can say how they would have differed had they been artificially incubated. Fortunately it looks like we have some beautiful babies about to come into this world. I can't wait to see all of them!

TheAudOne, you keep making comparisons of reptiles to mammals and then saying their nothing alike. Why not try and make your argument with something that can be used appropriately in comparison. It would greatly add to the discussion.

Also I feel like you are saying that anyone who uses an incubator is only in it for profit. (which I'm slightly offended by) Do you realize you incur a greater cost on equipment and cost of heating it? It would be much more cost efficient to allow maternal incubation. Which is why many people choose maternal incubation. This is not the case here, but is the reason why I've continued in this discussion.

Anyway, back to the wonderful pictures. You must post more ASAP!! I can't wait until the little ones have fully emerged. :clap:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheAudOne

how did I know you would be the fist one to jump on me? ;)
I'm just saying, no one is right and no one is wrong, some people eat meat and some dont, some people say cats are better then dogs and others say dogs are better then cats..does that mean I should run up to them and tell them how wrong they are for eating meat and not likeing dogs? Hell no.

Its rare for me to ever talk or post any where when I know someone is going to get mad, I never want to ruffle feathers (or scales) I'm a peace maker at heart, but I was just sitting here reading your posts and couldnt help but notice you were getting pretty pissed at some points.

I was trying to cool the situation and get everyone off there soap boxes and back to reality, no one is perfect, there are always 2 ways to do something and were all human.

So by all means, say again 'where to start" and try coming off as the smartest person in the room.

If you cant figure out the connection between me having a child and being a woman, compared to a snake caring for a clutch them I'm sorry.

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Nobody is jumping on you. Last I checked, constructive debate is still allowed here. Nobody is on their soap box (except for you in your last post). There is no correlation between you having a child and a snake procreating. Try to stop associating your human feelings and needs with that of a snake. Also, why the thinly veiled attack on people breeding snakes as shown here?

Quote:

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I could understand saying "do whats best for the snake and incubate the eggs" because while shes sitting on the eggs for 60 days, not eating or resting a breeder is losing money hu?

So who is doing whats best for the snakes? Breeders are creating more snakes, when there are millions looking for good homes.....hmmmm. And Sapphire over here is letting her little mama...well be a mama.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Try to stop associating your human feelings and needs with that of a snake.

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You know everyone has different views in this. No need to re-bring it up.:(
Also last time I heard everyone had a right to their own freedom of expression/opinions here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheAudOne

Good for you, it must feel great that they came out just fine.

Your trusted your gut and did what you thought was best.

It must feel good hu?


And I would like to add my 2 cents.

Being a mom not a breeder though, being pregnant, giving birth, caring for eggs etc. Is stressful...who said it isnt and wasnt going to be? I wish when I got pregnant someone took my fetus, put her in a sterile environment and "raised her" so I could eat and rest the whole 9 months. You wanna talk about stress? Try throwing up 12 times a day for 9 months! Only to have to learn to nurse and take care of an infant on only 1/2 hour of sleep a day. She's 2 now and still I'm just as tired and stressed as the first day.

But even after all that, it was worth it. And I would do it 100 more times with out thought...why? Because I'm a woman and thats what my body was created to do for me.

I'm not saying a snake has any gradification after hatching her eggs herself or anything who knows. But wasnt she designed for this?

Were all saying "its in the animals best interest to put her eggs in an incubater" why not give her the one natural thing we can, while we have her living in this "plastic nature" I know taking a dogs pups away after birth induces stree in them, I even had a cat jump the fence into my waiting rottweilers and pitbulls mouths to get her kittens I had rescued.

I'm not saying snakes are like dogs or cats or people...but all the way across the board (excluding snakes in some peoples eyes) birth and taking care of there young is a process females do, and do better then any plastic box on most days.

If her eggs were left then yeah, if you felt it was right to take them and incubate them, then go for it.

But if a mother is holding onto her eggs and wanting to take her chances then why not let her know she is capable of this?

Obviously she knows what she's doing.
Birth is stressful end of story, stressful knwoing you could die from birth, your babies could die etc. etc.
Its a chance nature has set us up to take.

I believe everything happens for a reason. And Sapphire chose this way and it worked, she isnt breeding them for profit, so this way was best in her eyes. I could understand saying "do whats best for the snake and incubate the eggs" because while shes sitting on the eggs for 60 days, not eating or resting a breeder is losing money hu?

So who is doing whats best for the snakes? Breeders are creating more snakes, when there are millions looking for good homes.....hmmmm. And Sapphire over here is letting her little mama...well be a mama.

No one is wrong and no one is right, to each his own.

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First of all, it was not Sapphire's snake, it was mine. This is the thread about my clutch... :P Just so there's no confusion there.

Secondly, I am not getting into breeding snakes just to have more in my collection. I am planning on learning more and more and hopefully having more and more successful breedings, and that will include selling offspring. You are right, there are a number of snakes that are not properly cared for or in need of homes, but I think captive breeding can be a better way of having snakes in captivity than catching thousands of wild specimens from the wild, mostly for the snakes' health and success rates of captive bred vs wild caught pets. I don't think that just because there are people out there that do not care for their animals properly, that the people that do should not be able to purchase them from a reliable private breeder.

Lastly, I understand your point about maternal instincts and capabilities. Thanks for your post.

[QUOTE=Sapphire7]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Try to stop associating your human feelings and needs with that of a snake. QUOTE]

You know everyone has different views in this. No need to re-bring it up.:(

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I wasn't the one who brought it up again. It was TheAudOne who decided to rekindle the fire and pontificate about all things maternal. :rockon:

This is a good moment, don't you two ruin it by arguing...haha. ;)

I am really happy for you. I want pictures of the babies too. Congratulations and good job.

[QUOTE=jglass38]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

I wasn't the one who brought it up again. It was TheAudOne who decided to rekindle the fire and pontificate about all things maternal. :rockon:

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Yeah but everyone has the right to post their own opinions. Which we both did quite enough in. lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheAudOne

If you cant figure out the connection between me having a child and being a woman, compared to a snake caring for a clutch them I'm sorry.

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I'm not trying to stoke the fire, but I wanted to comment on that last statement. There really is very little in common with you having a child or most mammals giving birth and a snake caring for a clutch. The snake is acting pretty much on instinct and chemical cues and has no emotional attachment to the clutch.

[QUOTE=Sapphire7]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Yeah but everyone has the right to post their own opinions. Which we both did quite enough in. lol.

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You know what they say about opinions! :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

you literally took my breathe away!

congratulations congratulations :fest2: congratulations congratulations congratulations :fest: congratulations congratulations congratulations :wuv: congratulations congratulations congratulations :bday: congratulationscongratulations congratulations :pinkele: congratulations :sweeet: congratulations :fest2: congratulations :fest: congratulations :wuv: congratulations :bday: congratulations congratulations congratulations :pinkele: congratulations :sweeet: congratulations :fest2: congratulations congratulations congratulations :fest: congratulations :wuv: congratulations :bday: congratulations :pinkele: congratulations :bday:


congratulations how does it feel to be a :grandma:


congratulations :blowkiss:

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I think this sums it up in a nutshell, LOL, Congratulations!!!!!1 :gj: :tongue2:

About the pics... There will be more as soon as I am aware of any changes. I am hoping for more pip action, but I am still worried about the two eggs I mentioned before.

Thanks everyone :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I'm not trying to stoke the fire, but I wanted to comment on that last statement. There really is very little in common with you having a child or most mammals giving birth and a snake caring for a clutch. The snake is acting pretty much on instinct and chemical cues and has no emotional attachment to the clutch.

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All females are "on instinct" when having a child. That was what TheAudOne was trying to put in.

I am clearly pointing out that if anyone wants to point fingers and say "your doing this wrong" and "I'm doing this right" they could very well make a good point.

Again coming off like someone who is mad etc. is easy to do being that emotion isnt something you can show here in text.

I'm sure its just hard for Rapture after doing all of her research and coming to what she thinks is best, to come on line and talk about how happy she is, only to get questioned by some people again and again.

I said pretty clear "I am not a breeder" so yes I compare other things, if I could bring something else to the table I would of.


Sheesh..I keep saying Sapphire....why are you on my mind today? :P

instinct plays a huge roll in giving birth no matter if your human or not...trust me on this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rapture

About the pics... There will be more as soon as I am aware of any changes. I am hoping for more pip action, but I am still worried about the two eggs I mentioned before.

Thanks everyone :)

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Hope they all hatch:D I remember going to a breeder once (just to check it out) and I saw babies pipping. Their heads come out taking first breaths and then deciding it was a HUGE worled compared to their eggs and decide to go back in. SOOOOOOO cute. BTW that was recent too. Ohhh I wish I could've taken those cuties home. lol Then I'd have a whole heard of slithering babies.:tongue2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

All females are "on instinct" when having a child. That was what TheAudOne was trying to put in.

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I disagree. There are so many unnatural ways that people have developed in giving birth. People by their very nature seem to constantly be at odds with their instincts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheAudOne

instinct plays a huge roll in giving birth no matter if your human or not...trust me on this.

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Unfortunately that wasn't the point you made otherwise I would have agreed with you. Reread what you wrote... :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheAudOne

I am clearly pointing out that if anyone wants to point fingers and say "your doing this wrong" and "I'm doing this right" they could very well make a good point.

Again coming off like someone who is mad etc. is easy to do being that emotion isnt something you can show here in text.

I'm sure its just hard for Sapphire after doing all of her research and coming to what she thinks is best, to come on line and talk about how happy she is, only to get questioned by some people again and again.

I said pretty clear "I am not a breeder" so yes I compare other things, if I could bring something else to the table I would of.

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Yes I did do research but I wasnt breeding and not sure I'd ever will because of overpopulating animals in petstores and all sorts of reasons. But if I would I'd do maternal. But people have to know I really really love my snakes, they are my children after my own kids grew up, and If I was to ever breed it would just be my way of doing so. I believe its Rapture who is the one who is breeding and decided that Maternal incubation was the best way for him:oops: and he did all the research all before breeding and everything:P

thats a good one and yes, some people do ignore there mind, body and soul during these times.

again Sapphire....why do I keep saying your name!!

I have given birth twice, and can say there was little 'instinct' involved. I was completely at a loss. Not to say it wasn't beautiful, but I relied on quite a bit of coaching and such to get through it.

Psssttt..... It's RAPTURE's clutch!!!! ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

I have given birth twice, and can say there was little 'instinct' involved. I was completely at a loss. Not to say it wasn't beautiful, but I relied on quite a bit of coaching and such to get through it.

Psssttt..... It's RAPTURE's clutch!!!! ;)

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Gimme an amen for the good drugs! :tongue2:

I know its Rapture's darn it :P Sapphire some how has crept into my mind and the only name I can post is Sapphire today lol.

I had the fight or flight instinct during birth..does that count? I felt like runnning out leaving everyone else to give birth for me lol. No really, I became more intuned to my body during those 9 months. I knew the second the was concieved and from then on it was peace and connection.....and an induction and a epidural. lol.

So can we all kiss and make up now?:hug: :handshake :love:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

I have given birth twice, and can say there was little 'instinct' involved. I was completely at a loss. Not to say it wasn't beautiful, but I relied on quite a bit of coaching and such to get through it.

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Is screaming an instinct? :P 'Cuz I heard LOTS of that in the neighboring rooms.

BTW, congrats Rapture! :colbert2: Making babies of any kind and any way is always cool! (Except mosquitoes. I hate mosquitoes.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

(Except mosquitoes. I hate mosquitoes.)

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Weren't you planning to start a mosquito farm?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Weren't you planning to start a mosquito farm?

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I'm still working out a deal for some cool mosquito morphs. You should see the Piebald! (that is if you can get your hands on a microscope)

Quote:

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Except mosquitoes. I hate mosquitoes

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lol