Live prey vs......

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Originally Posted by mr~python

do you mean entertaining as in the snake exibiting its natural instincts, entertaining. please tell me thats what it is.

its illegal either way and a law abiding citizen should be honest enough to not disobey the law no matter how ridiculous the laws may be.

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i think he just likes watching animals suffer.
regarding the law, you are right, and just because they wont find out about it doesnt make it right either.

Rmune, is that how you determine whether you will follow a law? whether or not you are going to get caught?

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Originally Posted by Slithers

i think he just likes watching animals suffer.

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now, i dont think its fair to make that assumption yet. i also think its very interesting how my snakes hunt, kill, and swallow there prey, but i dont think its interesting that the mouse is being constricted to death.;)

rmune could just think the snake exibiting its natural hunting insticts is interesting to watch, which i think its safe to say many of us do, right?:confuzd:

I agree Marshall....

I would argue that snakes are incredibly efficient killers and any suffering on the part of the rodent is minimized by the snake- not intentional, but as a result of millions of years of evolution. Predators have to kill, to end another animal's life, to survive. If you haven't come to terms with this aspect of nature and reality, then you probably should reconsider taking the responsibility of keeping a predatory animal as a pet.

I feed live, and do I get any pleasure out of seeing the rats die? Of course not. I do, however, appreciate and respect it for what it is.

I feed F/T but in the few occasions that I fed live I must admit that watching a predator/prey relationship in your own how is quite amazing. It gave me a new respect for my snake, their patience, timing, and speed is amazing.

I would certainly abide by the rules and laws, god forbid someone found out you would risk losing your entire collection, not worth it to me.

The only thing I dislike about feeding live is my paranoia that the rat could sneak in a bite and my snake could lose an eye before i knew it.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

The only thing I dislike about feeding live is my paranoia that the rat could sneak in a bite and my snake could lose an eye before i knew it.

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Don't lose too much sleep over that...very rarely do they get a chance to bite, and when they do, they rarely inflict much, if any, damage to the snake anyway. Their scales definitely do their job in protecting them from incidental rodent bites during contriction. Nature designed them that way. ;)

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Don't lose too much sleep over that...very rarely do they get a chance to bite, and when they do, they rarely inflict much, if any, damage to the snake anyway. Their scales definitely do their job in protecting them from incidental rodent bites during contriction. Nature designed them that way. ;)

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Yea my paranoia is limited to just an eye loss scenario lol I know the rest of their bodies are well armored.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

Yea my paranoia is limited to just an eye loss scenario lol I know the rest of their bodies are well armored.

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That's my concern too, I've seen a number of snakes that have lost eyes to rodent bites! Good point.

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

That's my concern too, I've seen a number of snakes that have lost eyes to rodent bites! Good point.

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I mean I guess it wouldn't be the end of the world since they're vision isn't the greatest to begin with, but I can only assume it would make things more stressful to not have that little bit of vision anymore.

Since my snakes 1st shed i noticed his scales feel more "loose" you know what i mean?
is that ok? .... (i'm a lil over protective of him)

i prefer giving them live food. i like the feeling of knowing that my bp is still keeping his natural instinct. snakes have been worship'd as gods and demons for centuries. its good to keep that image of their fierce and cunning skills. but yet the fact of knowing that i have such a reptile in my possesion is a great feeling. i named my bp Apep. snake god of the demon underworld, viewed by the egyptions as a man with a snakes head.

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Originally Posted by Slithers

i think he just likes watching animals suffer.
regarding the law, you are right, and just because they wont find out about it doesnt make it right either.

Rmune, is that how you determine whether you will follow a law? whether or not you are going to get caught?

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NO. It's not like that at all, I just like seeing the snake exhibit its natural instincts just like mr python said...dont assume things if u dont kno me :)

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Originally Posted by mr~python

its illegal either way and a law abiding citizen should be honest enough to not disobey the law no matter how ridiculous the laws may be.

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I dont agree with that. If our government imposed an absolutely ridiculous law that had nothing to do with the welfare of the people, lets say, no chewing bubblegum on sundays, I dont think I'd follow that law. just my :2cent:

Back to the topic :P

I feed live only being I think it's more natural for the snake, and easier on me. Supervised

In your opinion, does live rats cause your balls to become aggresive? Cause that's the only concern i have had.

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Originally Posted by Korei

In your opinion, does live rats cause your balls to become aggresive? Cause that's the only concern i have had.

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Nope not at all. My boy pounds live rats and is still a sweetheart...

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Originally Posted by Korei

In your opinion, does live rats cause your balls to become aggresive? Cause that's the only concern i have had.

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I have one that eats both and is a total sweetie, but I have another that will eat f/t only but is the only to take a bite out of me. (and likes to hiss at me if I disturb her royal highness) I think it boils down to the individual snake, not the feeding method. :rolleyes:

My girl that I got about a month ago was raised on live prey so I really did not have a choice. I did try to feed her a frozen mouse once but she didnt even care about it. She likes moving targets...

loosing a beloved to pre-killed turned me to live.:(

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Originally Posted by Thunder Kat

loosing a beloved to pre-killed turned me to live.:(

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How did you lose one to pre-killed?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

How did you lose one to pre-killed?

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yeah i would like to know that aswell :confused:

For me ive always fed frozen food to all my snakes except for one royal that would only take live for the first year i had him, i got him on to frozen though eventually and hes still a pig , i just prefer frozen as its easier for me , not that theres anything wrong at all with feeding live prey.
live feeding imo is totally natural and very interesting to watch as you get to see how the snake would hunt and react to there prey as they would in the wild. i see nothing wrong with it at all , its nature.. like it or not snakes are predators and very good at what they do :)

p.s i voted for the dosnt matter option

I bought my boy Nag oh...in february I think it was, and was feeding him f/t with success, even though he was mostly dead when I got him. I got my baby girl Nagaina in may, and tried f/t with her with no success. I tried 3 weeks in a row to feed her f/t again with no success.

I went and got a live mousie and when i put it in her cage, she wasted no time at all before striking.

So I figured if I had to go to the pet store every week for nagaina, I might as well feed Nag live prey as well.

Nag got fat and Nagaina is growing like a weed, and I only feed them once a week to 10 days.

I happen to enjoy feeding live. *shrug* maybe I'm just weird that way.

I do protect the snaked from scratches and bites during feeding. I hold the tail and let it walk around for a minute, and usually no more than 30 seconds later, strike and coil. thats cool IMHO

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Originally Posted by Thunder Kat

loosing a beloved to pre-killed turned me to live.:(

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Originally Posted by rabernet

How did you lose one to pre-killed?

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Must've been one of those zombie rats:rolleye2: LMAO

Yea, whichever they prefer.. Mine have always like live the best, rather their CH or WC

Hey Adam, Im new and have three balls, they all eat live, the mice are ok for the little ball but for the biggerones they eat rats and im just not comfortable, I want to prekill them but need to know how. Im afraid they will hurt my babies.
I know there are some answers here somewhere! thanks for listening

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Originally Posted by fionafancypants

I want to prekill them but need to know how. Im afraid they will hurt my babies.
I know there are some answers here somewhere! thanks for listening

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I'm not Adam, but hopefully this thread helps you with your question. It's a sticky in the feeders forum.
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=33850

Good luck.

live but responsibly

:soapbx:

Let this help you decide -> (Graphic Warning - LINK)

Rick

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

:soapbx:

Let this help you decide -> (Graphic Warning - LINK)

Rick

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Originally Posted by juddb

live but responsibly

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It is very obvious the snake in that picture wasnt being watched while being fed live. Not being watched is why things like that happen. A snake could be bit while being watch, but it wouldnt get that far because the responsible owner would stop it LONG before that. I would be willing to go out on a limb here and say that that was probably a case of a rodent being left in a cage for days before being checked on again. I agree that pic has its place (showing why not to leave live feeders with snakes unsupervised) but i do not think it should be brought up to say feeding live is just bad. I'd like so say more here, but this topic always seems to get pretty heated pretty quickly, so im gonna try to stay out of this one.

I say on behalf of the rodents, dont feed live. But perhaps if you had most natural of enclosures and stimulate the "wildness" then go ahead:) But I would never feed anything bigger than a mouse Live, because of all the horror stories and pics Ive seen. And many animals larger than mice struggle too much and its just heart breaking. Mice are in the constriction and they die very quick unlike many other larger animals... This is just in my opinion, please dont bash me Live feeders. I dont have time to argue over something that cannot be changed... No matter how much you argue. But, I do love good discussions, learn something new every day :D

[QUOTE=piranhaking]but i do not think it should be brought up to say feeding live is just bad[QUOTE]

In reply..

No offense taken or given, but I did not say feeding live was good or bad.. I just said let that help you decide, anything else was read into it. I will state I feed fresh killed or frozen/thawed most of the time, but sometimes you need to start a new snake on live first if that is what it is used to.

Fact is..

If Joe feeds live and monitors them and his rats never bite his snake, he can start to feel comfortable and become relaxed on his responsibility to monitor them. I realize there are people who may not do this, but as humans.. humans are lazy and get bored rather easy.. or perhaps the phone rings, or perhaps a friend shows up and Joe gets sidetracked.. It happens...

My opinion..

I would rather suggest feeding fresh killed, a freshly killed rat will not cause that issue. There are times when live is required, but I never recommend live to anyone who buys a snake off me that has been moved onto prekilled already.

Rick

i feed mine both live and f/t.but i think im gonna have to stick with f/t because my sisters and my mom cant take the thought of feeding live mice to my BP and blood.

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

Fact is..

If Joe feeds live and monitors them and his rats never bite his snake, he can start to feel comfortable and become relaxed on his responsibility to monitor them. I realize there are people who may not do this, but as humans.. humans are lazy and get bored rather easy.. or perhaps the phone rings, or perhaps a friend shows up and Joe gets sidetracked.. It happens...

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I've been feeding hundreds of animals live every single week for over 10 years ... never had a problem (not one single scratch, bite, or mauling) ... sounds more like an opinion than a "fact". ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I've been feeding hundreds of animals live every single week for over 10 years ... never had a problem (not one single scratch, bite, or mauling) ... sounds more like an opinion than a "fact". ;)

-adam

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Adam,

With all due respect, I did not say all people who feed live are irresponsible or careless. I said it does happen, and it does happen all too often. There are less people who know what they are doing than those who do. People who bought a snake, had it for a few months and assume since rats have never bothered their snake before so feel its ok to "just run to the store" with the rat in there. I assume, Adam, that you would not do this.. but I also assume that since you have been doing this for 10 years you have seen many, many careless people in the hobby. I run a rescue as well, my way to give back to the hobby that I enjoy, and I this all to often and I know our vet sees more of it than I do.

Rick

I feed all seventeen of mine live every week as well, mice and small/small rats. I would never just "run out" during feeding - there's a set time each week dedicated to feeding, uninterrupted, and I don't start cooking, or cleaning until everyone is tucked back into their hides.

I've been doing this for over a year now, and I have also not ever experienced any injuries.

I think that MOST of the members on this forum, who feed live know how to do so responsibly.

BP.net prides itself in supporting each keepers right to choose how they'd like to feed without concern of someone telling them that they are wrong for their choice. I don't feed p/k or f/t, but I also don't tell those people that feeding live is better, just that it is my choice.

Based on my personal experience, the "scare tactics" that p/k-f/t advocates love to use by posting graphic pictures of mauled snakes from irresponsible live feeding (leaving live prey overnight with their snake for example) are a bit like crying wolf and is not an accurate representation of responsible live feeding. Yes, it does drive home the fact that one should not feed live if they haven't carefully thought through it, but it isn't evidence that routine responsible live feeding by well informed keepers will result in injuries.

I'd like to think that the bulk of our membership have joined this forum, because they DO want to become well-informed, whether it be to learn more about keeping their snakes in tubs or glass vivs, how to convert a live feeder to p/k or f/t, or how to safely feed live.

OK, off my :soapbx:

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I'd like to think that the bulk of our membership have joined this forum, because they DO want to become well-informed, whether it be to learn more about keeping their snakes in tubs or glass vivs, how to convert a live feeder to p/k or f/t, or how to safely feed live.

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exactly why i joined this site!!:sweeet:

I had a creamsickel corn and he was a shy eater would only eat in a small dark shoe box. I bought 2 small tub of pinkies from pet smart (40$for 12 pinkies). Well they were rotten and I didn't know he died the day after feeding. So I thawed one out a looked at it underthe light and when it was frozen it was blood red and brown when thawed. My husband took a look a said it looked rotten too. I call pet smart and they said they'd check their frozen mice but as far as my snake or refunding my money they said they couldn't help me. I cryed over the loss for over two weeks, my uncle bought me Clair to replace him (I love her but nothing can replace my first baby.):crying: (It was my first snake so I didn't know any better) and I'm still kicking my self for even walking in there!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

How did you lose one to pre-killed?

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that's why if you feed live you have to watch to make sure that does'n happen. it said the owner left a rat in there over night and i hope most poeple are smart enough not to do that. by the way it made me sick the poor poor thing!!!

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

:soapbx:

Let this help you decide -> (Graphic Warning - LINK)

Rick

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

In reply..

No offense taken or given, but I did not say feeding live was good or bad.. I just said let that help you decide, anything else was read into it. I will state I feed fresh killed or frozen/thawed most of the time, but sometimes you need to start a new snake on live first if that is what it is used to.
Rick

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I appoligize for the way that came across. I noticed i missed a word in there to after re-reading it. I meant to say i dont think it should be brought up just to say live feeding is just bad. Also, I wasnt really directing that at you (although looking back, i see thats exactly how it looks). I have seen cases where pics or storys like that were used by people to just out right bash live feeding in any case (not even taking into account problem feeders), which is what i had in mind when I said that.

Again, I did NOT say feeding live was bad, nor did I use scare tactics to say feeding live was bad. I have posted repeatedly that live is even required at times. I posted that I do not recommend to people who buy snakes from me to feed live if the snake I am selling has already been converted to prekilled, what is the point if the snake is already willingly taking prekilled?

The picture was posted since this thread is a debate of the pros and cons. The picture was not a scare tactic, it was an indicator of what can happen IF you feed live and are not responsible about it, as I posted in my prior thread.

Yes, most of the people here are here to ask and learn. That's wonderful and it's a great site that teaches responsibility, but not everyone who goes to a pet store or who orders a snake online comes here. Many of those people do not know. The owner of the snake pictured on that site is a local who took that snake to my regular herp vet. It happens around here all too often. The girl thought "Rats eat grain. I had no idea the rat would eat the snake." I have heard many after-thought regrets by several people who have also made this mistake. If that picture makes someone think twice, if this post makes someone realize that irresponsible feeding of live is bad, than I have made my point.

Again... I did NOT say feeding live was bad. I said that irresponsible feeding of live is bad, and that it's easy for someone to fall into the lull of safety offered when you feed live for years and nothing bad happens, they then think it's safe to leave the room for just a few minutes. Perhaps nothing bad happens at all. Then next time maybe for an hour, maybe a few hours.. Now things get dangerous. That is the point I am making.

Rick

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I feed all seventeen of mine live every week as well, mice and small/small rats. I would never just "run out" during feeding - there's a set time each week dedicated to feeding, uninterrupted, and I don't start cooking, or cleaning until everyone is tucked back into their hides.

I've been doing this for over a year now, and I have also not ever experienced any injuries.

I think that MOST of the members on this forum, who feed live know how to do so responsibly.

BP.net prides itself in supporting each keepers right to choose how they'd like to feed without concern of someone telling them that they are wrong for their choice. I don't feed p/k or f/t, but I also don't tell those people that feeding live is better, just that it is my choice.

Based on my personal experience, the "scare tactics" that p/k-f/t advocates love to use by posting graphic pictures of mauled snakes from irresponsible live feeding (leaving live prey overnight with their snake for example) are a bit like crying wolf and is not an accurate representation of responsible live feeding. Yes, it does drive home the fact that one should not feed live if they haven't carefully thought through it, but it isn't evidence that routine responsible live feeding by well informed keepers will result in injuries.

I'd like to think that the bulk of our membership have joined this forum, because they DO want to become well-informed, whether it be to learn more about keeping their snakes in tubs or glass vivs, how to convert a live feeder to p/k or f/t, or how to safely feed live.

OK, off my :soapbx:

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Originally Posted by piranhaking

I appoligize for the way that came across. I noticed i missed a word in there to after re-reading it. I meant to say i dont think it should be brought up just to say live feeding is just bad. Also, I wasnt really directing that at you (although looking back, i see thats exactly how it looks). I have seen cases where pics or storys like that were used by people to just out right bash live feeding in any case (not even taking into account problem feeders), which is what i had in mind when I said that.

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No problem man,

"Live vs Prekilled" will always be a debate. I agree both have their uses. When it comes down to it, it's all opinion.. like Chevy vs Ford, Pepsi vs Coke.. I personally use both prekilled and live. I am not against responsible use of live feeding, just adding food for thought. ;)

Rick

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

Again... I did NOT say feeding live was bad. I said that irresponsible feeding of live is bad, and that it's easy for someone to fall into the lull of safety offered when you feed live for years and nothing bad happens, they then think it's safe to leave the room for just a few minutes. Perhaps nothing bad happens at all. Then next time maybe for an hour, maybe a few hours.. Now things get dangerous. That is the point I am making.

Rick

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Why do you assume that "the next time" responsible live feeders will just leave for an hour or a few hours? I can assure you - I take the responsiblity VERY seriously. I happen to have a bit more confidence than you do in our members here who take the time to learn how to do it correctly.

Like I said - I don't care what anyone feeds their snakes - as long as they are fully informed of ALL their options and are not made to think that feeding p/k or f/t is preferable.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Why do you assume that "the next time" responsible live feeders will just leave for an hour or a few hours? I can assure you - I take the responsiblity VERY seriously. I happen to have a bit more confidence than you do in our members here who take the time to learn how to do it correctly.

Like I said - I don't care what anyone feeds their snakes - as long as they are fully informed of ALL their options and are not made to think that feeding p/k or f/t is preferable.

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Robin,

Please step back, take a deep breath and re-read my statements. I am saying people who are not members here, people who buy from pet shops or online who may not realize the damage a snake can do if fed live and left unattended.. I did not show any disrespect to you or the members of this site. I even praised this site and the members of this site a post or two back. I keep saying feeding live is fine if done responsibly. If you are a responsible live feeder, fine. What is the issue? Why are you reading words into my statement. I have been very clear. I am not flaming, I am not being rude, yet I feel as though you are being combative even though you have no reason to be.

Where did I say that feeding live rodents is bad, even if you are a responsible person who stands there and monitors the entire feeding process? I didn't.

I do not mean to show you any disrespect, but please read my post from an objective standpoint prior to jumping on me and accusing me of having little confidence in the members of this site. If they are here, they obviously seek to learn (thus be a responsible keeper) or they are here to share knowledge to help others, either way I applaud them all.

I feel some people are reading this thread and are automatically put into a combative roll based only on the subject matter. If you just read my posts with a fresh, open mind, you will see I am not saying "Feeding live is bad!!", I am saying "Feeding live is bad if done irresponsibly".

Rick

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

Robin,

Please step back, take a deep breath and re-read my statements. I am saying people who are not members here, people who buy from pet shops or online who may not realize the damage a snake can do if fed live and left unattended.. I did not show any disrespect to you or the members of this site. I even praised this site and the members of this site a post or two back. I keep saying feeding live is fine if done responsibly. If you are a responsible live feeder, fine. What is the issue? Why are you reading words into my statement. I have been very clear. I am not flaming, I am not being rude, yet I feel as though you are being combative even though you have no reason to be.

Where did I say that feeding live rodents is bad, even if you are a responsible person who stands there and monitors the entire feeding process? I didn't.

I do not mean to show you any disrespect, but please read my post from an objective standpoint prior to jumping on me and accusing me of having little confidence in the members of this site. If they are here, they obviously seek to learn (thus be a responsible keeper) or they are here to share knowledge to help others, either way I applaud them all.

I feel some people are reading this thread and are automatically put into a combative roll based only on the subject matter. If you just read my posts with a fresh, open mind, you will see I am not saying "Feeding live is bad!!", I am saying "Feeding live is bad if done irresponsibly".

Rick

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Perhaps I did mis-read your intended message, and my posts were not meant to be combative. Perhaps some of my frustration as a responsible live feeder bled into my posts. My apologies.

I completely agree with you on the section I bolded. :)

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

With all due respect, I did not say all people who feed live are irresponsible or careless.

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No need to respect me, I'm nobody important or special ... but you did say

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

I realize there are people who may not do this, but as humans.. humans are lazy and get bored rather easy.. or perhaps the phone rings, or perhaps a friend shows up and Joe gets sidetracked.. It happens...

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You didn't say "new people", "inexperienced people", "people that don't know what they're doing" ... you said "humans" ..."humans are lazy" ... well, since on most days I fall into the "human" category, so I responded.

It's fine to have differing opinions ... that's what makes this place sooo cool ... lots of people can get together and do things a bunch of different ways while still taking great care of their animals and getting along.

As far as people that just bought a snake, there's nothing you can do to help that ... people use hot rocks, they let their animals escape, they leave them without water for months, they provide no heat at all, they allow their dogs and cats to get into their snake enclosures, etc ... I've seen it all over the past 25 years ... All you can do is educate the people that want to be educated and that's what we try and do here. :sweeet:

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

No need to respect me, I'm nobody important or special.

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Everyone deserves a certain amount of respect. From there the level of respect will rise or lower, depending on the person and how he/she conducts him/herself.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You didn't say "new people", "inexperienced people", "people that don't know what they're doing" ... you said "humans" ..."humans are lazy" ... well, since on most days I fall into the "human" category, so I responded.

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Well, humans as a race are lazy. Some more than others, some less than others, but as a race we look for the easy way. We design products, food, etc.. to be quick and easy.

My point was to 'humans' who would walk away carelessly or because they didn't know better. If you do not fit that roll, than it wasn't intended toward you.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

It's fine to have differing opinions ... that's what makes this place sooo cool ... lots of people can get together and do things a bunch of different ways while still taking great care of their animals and getting along.

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I agree 100%.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

As far as people that just bought a snake, there's nothing you can do to help that ... people use hot rocks, they let their animals escape, they leave them without water for months, they provide no heat at all, they allow their dogs and cats to get into their snake enclosures, etc ...

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Yes, we can educate. If people see that image, if people read these discussion, than we did our part. If others reading this tell their friend or discuss it at their local petshop, or perhaps to a fellow customer, than we did our part. Can we safe all animals from a fate of ignorance? No, but if anyone thinks twice about driving to the store while leaving a live rat in with their snake, then I am pleased. That was my whole point.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I've seen it all over the past 25 years ... All you can do is educate the people that want to be educated and that's what we try and do here. :sweeet:

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Exactly,

Rick

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Perhaps I did mis-read your intended message, and my posts were not meant to be combative. Perhaps some of my frustration as a responsible live feeder bled into my posts. My apologies.

I completely agree with you on the section I bolded. :)

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I am glad you re-read my statements, and I am glad we are back on track.

I understand how easy it is when reading a 'debate' type thread, it's easy to automatically get yourself into a defensive or combative roll. :handshake

Rick

I feed my guy mostly frozen and then thawed mice. Occasionally I will give him a live one, though.

I feed my ball live. Never had a problem and she never missed a meal.

My monty loves live Rat Pups live I tried prekilled but he wont go for it! :) :snake:

I feed mine live kittens. People are always giving them away free - saves on $.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I feed mine live kittens. People are always giving them away free - saves on $.

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THAT'S not even funny to JOKE about!:mad: :eek: