OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Are you serious? Known to not have a potent venom?

The first link that you posted states this about B.Nasicornis "VERY TOXIC BY INTRAVENOUS AND INTRAMUSCULAR ROUTES". Fortunately not much is known about Bitis N. or B. G. because not very many people have been bitten by them, due to their calm and lazy nature. They usually only bite when stepped on or harassed. Most of their data is from mice and monkeys.

Worlds most venomous snakes

To say that a Bitis N's venom is not potent is ignorant. Sure its not as potent as say a Taipan, but it is far from being non fatal. They are more fatal than many venomous snakes, such as the Agkistrodon contortrix, or Crotalus atrox which both have a low toxicity level. The B.N. is actually in the middle, but the amount of venom is indeed also a factor, as they do inject far more than any other snake.

"Bites are relatively rare, due to their docile nature and because their range is mainly limited to rainforest areas. Due to their sluggishness and unwillingness to move even when approached, people are often bitten after they accidentally step on them, but even then in some cases they may not bite. However, when a bite does occur, it should always be considered a serious medical emergency. Even an average bite from an average-sized specimen is potentially fatal. Antivenin should be administered as soon as possible to save the victim's life if not the affected limb."

A study by Marsh and Whaler was done and found that the equivalent to 0.06 ml of venom, or 1/50 to 1/1000 of what can be obtained in a single milking. 35 mg (1/30 of the average venom yield) would be enough to kill a man of 150lbs.


As far as pictures, I wish that we did still have pictures of our Rhino's. They were very beautiful. Unfortunately that was years and a few computers ago and we no longer have any of them.

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Maybe you care to read the second document, and tell me the LD 50 value given for nasicornis? I will save you the time, 8.6mg per Kg. That is a low potency! That figure is for intramuscular envenomation, most intravenous envenomations will be near fatal/fatal.

Bitis gabonica had a intramuscular LD50 of 5.2. Much strong than that of nasicornis, yet it is accepted that it isn a potent venom. It is the amount injected that makes the three Bitis species dangerous.

I never said it was non fatal, I said it wasn't potent. As you don't seem to be able to understand the difference between the two words. A venom doesn't need to be potent to be fatal. There are many more factors involved that decide whether an envenomation will be fatal or not!

I like how you couldn't answer any of the other questions I ask. I'm surprised you don't have any pictures of snakes you have kept, seems odd.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

You obviously cannot read properly then, as I said I think my way is right and that's my opinion. So in fact I do have an opinion, for a 'proper' debate.



You're just trying to take it to the extreme.

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Well, where do you draw the line?

You seem to think that everything that you do is so perfect, so I'm assuming you'd draw the line at what you're doing. But why not make the naturalistic enclosure that much more natural and therefore better by adding a much more natural substrate?

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

As a snake keeper you should know that mites don't have to come from the substrate. When i went on holiday i took my snakes to a friends house, who keeps his snakes on paper etc - my snakes came back with mites!

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I've never heard of a mite outbreak that could be directly linked to newspaper. You got mites because your friends snakes had mites. I can almost guarantee his animals did not pick up the infestation from newspaper..

Honestly I have no problem with most of the stuff you're saying and how you keep your animals is fine and dandy by me. I dig naturalistic habitats and have personally kept several in the past for select species. How you come across could use a bit of tweaking if you desire a warmer reception and a good natured debate. The main thing that rubs me the wrong way is you expecting people to accept your method as best when you can offer no different proof than the rest of us that your animals are "happy" and healthy.

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Originally Posted by TJ_Burton

Please define in detail what a "properly executed naturalistic enclosure" is.

I am not trying to stir the pot, I am trying to help everyone define this extremely long and very poorly fought argument. (despite my two troll-ish posts)

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A properly executed naturalistic enclosure mimics, as close as possible, what the animal may encounter in the wild yet at the same time providing for any specialized husbandry requirements.

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Originally Posted by CatandDiallo

Well, where do you draw the line?

You seem to think that everything that you do is so perfect, so I'm assuming you'd draw the line at what you're doing. But why not make the naturalistic enclosure that much more natural and therefore better by adding a much more natural substrate?

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I draw the line at doing things that are clearly impractical. For my rattlesnakes, i'm not exactly going to ship in sand from the US am i. Sand is sand at the end of the day.

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Originally Posted by John1982

I've never heard of a mite outbreak that could be directly linked to newspaper. You got mites because your friends snakes had mites. I can almost guarantee his animals did not pick up the infestation from newspaper..

Honestly I have no problem with most of the stuff you're saying and how you keep your animals is fine and dandy by me. I dig naturalistic habitats and have personally kept several in the past for select species. How you come across could use a bit of tweaking if you desire a warmer reception and a good natured debate. The main thing that rubs me the wrong way is you expecting people to accept your method as best when you can offer no different proof than the rest of us that your animals are "happy" and healthy.

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I know they aren't in the news paper, but some how they've got into his collection.

If you use natural substrate its not hard to eliminate the chance of mites being present. I freeze, and then bake and micro wave all my substrate to make sure anything in there is killed.

To be honest, i couldn't care less if people accept it or not. People are set in their ways, and me coming on here without scientific backing isn't going to change that. But because there isn't evidence for it, doesn't give me reason to just provide my snakes with the basic environment does it? We shouldn't just assume because they are eating etc on paper towels they wouldn't benefit from a more interactive enclosure.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Skip;
Honest question, as I am wondering about conflicting things I've read.
I thought it was generally not a good idea to put much vertical climbing area in for bps. As being thick bodied and generally clumsy with climbing they could injure themselves (falling). Is this not the case? I would add some climbing to my display tanks if that is true. Thanks for any information!

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They are adept enough at climbing that birds make up a large percentage of their diet in the wild.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

A properly executed naturalistic enclosure mimics, as close as possible, what the animal may encounter in the wild yet at the same time providing for any specialized husbandry requirements.

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Just a small amendment, that it mimics, as close as possible, what the animal may encounter in the wild yet, at the same time, providing for any specialized husbandry requirements at exceptional and "best benefit" levels.

Balls don't encounter constant 60-70 percent humidity in the wild, while nor do they get the humidity bump just because their shedding.

The same can be said for the rattlers. It never rains in a naturalistic enclosure, but does in the wild.


Browsing on Tapatalk from my iPhone :)

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

I draw the line at doing things that are clearly impractical. For my rattlesnakes, i'm not exactly going to ship in sand from the US am i. Sand is sand at the end of the day..

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Not really. There are many types of sand. Play sand, concrete sand, reptile sand and others.

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I know they aren't in the news paper, but some how they've got into his collection.

If you use natural substrate its not hard to eliminate the chance of mites being present. I freeze, and then bake and micro wave all my substrate to make sure anything in there is killed..

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Not knowing your friend but one thing that could be the cause of getting mites is not having proper quarantine. Seeing that your snakes got them as well his snakes were not quarantined from your properly.

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To be honest, i couldn't care less if people accept it or not. People are set in their ways, and me coming on here without scientific backing isn't going to change that. But because there isn't evidence for it, doesn't give me reason to just provide my snakes with the basic environment does it? We shouldn't just assume because they are eating etc on paper towels they wouldn't benefit from a more interactive enclosure.

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Just because you have no proof doesn't mean you can't provide them with the environment that you see fit. At the same time you have no reason to say that the people that keep theirs in tubs or on paper that they have no passion or willingness to do anything.

With that being said, and I know that you don't care, but it's the way that you come across. That you are right and what everyone says is wrong is what people have a problem with. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but at the same time there is no need to have to be right all the time. Having to have the last word all the time that your right is just childish and something I expect from my 8yo but not from a grown adult.

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Originally Posted by mattb

Not really. There are many types of sand. Play sand, concrete sand, reptile sand and others.



Not knowing your friend but one thing that could be the cause of getting mites is not having proper quarantine. Seeing that your snakes got them as well his snakes were not quarantined from your properly.



Just because you have no proof doesn't mean you can't provide them with the environment that you see fit. At the same time you have no reason to say that the people that keep theirs in tubs or on paper that they have no passion or willingness to do anything.

With that being said, and I know that you don't care, but it's the way that you come across. That you are right and what everyone says is wrong is what people have a problem with. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but at the same time there is no need to have to be right all the time. Having to have the last word all the time that your right is just childish and something I expect from my 8yo but not from a grown adult.

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Use your initiative, what type of sand do you think i am using?

It could be that, more likely that he picked them up from else where as his reptiles are his job. So they're always clean etc.

But that is my opinion that i am right and that the others are wrong, why is so that so hard to accept? It's only opinion. And i honestly don't know how many times i have to say it, but i have nothing against tubs! If they're of adequate size etc. Maybe some of you would like to post your set ups? Would be interesting to see how many of you have tubs/racks longer than the actual adult snake?

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

They are adept enough at climbing that birds make up a large percentage of their diet in the wild.

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Interesting! I will have to check out what I can find on this. As in, are they climbing and getting into nests, etc or are they ambushing on the ground. Not trying to say they aren't adept, quite the opposite. I would just be interested in learning more of their abilities and if the risk is minimal enough for the added activity. Seeing as how it wouldn't help them as it does in the wild, in obtaining prey. Unless I start hanging the rats from branches...heh that might actually be neat to see!

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

Use your initiative, what type of sand do you think i am using?

It could be that, more likely that he picked them up from else where as his reptiles are his job. So they're always clean etc.

But that is my opinion that i am right and that the others are wrong, why is so that so hard to accept? It's only opinion. And i honestly don't know how many times i have to say it, but i have nothing against tubs! If they're of adequate size etc. Maybe some of you would like to post your set ups? Would be interesting to see how many of you have tubs/racks longer than the actual adult snake?

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It's hard to accept because of your ridiculously condescending attitudes towards everyone and everything, as well as your closed-mindedness.
The "I do everything right and I'd like to see any snakes healthier than mine and what you're doing is wrong and shows a lack of passion" instead of a civil "This is why I keep my snakes in naturalistic enclosures and why" is what is not getting you any buddies around here.

PS: I house my snakes in "naturalistic" tanks.

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Originally Posted by CatandDiallo

It's hard to accept because of your ridiculously condescending attitudes towards everyone and everything, as well as your closed-mindedness.
The "I do everything right and I'd like to see any snakes healthier than mine and what you're doing is wrong and shows a lack of passion" instead of a civil "This is why I keep my snakes in naturalistic enclosures and why" is what is not getting you any buddies around here.

PS: I house my snakes in "naturalistic" tanks.

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I'm close minded because i will never keep a snake in an empty tank? Ok then...I'm very close minded then...Seeing as keeping them in that type of set up has no benefits over a big, naturalistic viv/tub, aside from cost and the ability to keep more snakes.

No one seems to be willing to show their spacious racking set ups though..

Crotalids -

What is the point of coming into a debate with a condescending tone and a closed mind? You're simply coming here on a ball python forum with ZERO experience keeping ball pythons and telling keepers with hundreds of years of collective experience that your way is superior to theirs. You don't even have enough of an open mind to entertain that maybe what you do for your hots doesn't apply to ball pythons. Not only that, you're a hypocrite (in my opinion... Which to use your logic, since it's MY opinion, I'm right and there's no debating that...)

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

I'm close minded because i will never keep a snake in an empty tank? Ok then...I'm very close minded then...Seeing as keeping them in that type of set up has no benefits over a big, naturalistic viv/tub, aside from cost and the ability to keep more snakes.

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People have tried to explain to you the alleged benefits of keeping BALL PYTHONS in rack systems with small, tight tubs, but you're acting like a small child who is plugging his ears after he hears something that he doesn't like. Not to mention, some of these people have been keeping ball pythons for decades upon decades.

Your attitude is completely abrasive and the superiority complex that you seem to be exhibiting is not helping your case. I GUARANTEE YOU that if you came in here with the attitude that I posted in my previous post (the positive, non-judgemental one) you would be getting a very warm reception and nice conversations from the people in this community.

Something tells me you don't have the capacity to have a positive, non-judgemental attitude, though.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

No one seems to be willing to show their spacious racking set ups though..

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That's because by definition and design, a rack system isn't supposed to be "spacious". What are you looking for? Someone who has a rack full of 55 gallon tubs? My enclosures in my racks are size-appropriate for the animals they contain. When the snake begins to "outgrow" their tub, they're upgraded to the next appropriate size.

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Originally Posted by Inknsteel

Crotalids -

What is the point of coming into a debate with a condescending tone and a closed mind? You're simply coming here on a ball python forum with ZERO experience keeping ball pythons and telling keepers with hundreds of years of collective experience that your way is superior to theirs. You don't even have enough of an open mind to entertain that maybe what you do for your hots doesn't apply to ball pythons. Not only that, you're a hypocrite (in my opinion... Which to use your logic, since it's MY opinion, I'm right and there's no debating that...)

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If snakes can successfully live in the wild, we should be able to create a similar environment in captivity that they thrive in. Simple, there is no need for these simplistic enclosures that disregard what the habitat is like where the snakes originate.

Show me how i'm a hypocrite?

I've never kept a snake in a non naturalistic enclosure, or a lizard/gecko for that matter. Isn't that the point i've been arguing? So how can i be a hypocrite. It is indeed your opinion, but i can try to change your opinion - i'm not offended.

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Originally Posted by CatandDiallo

People have tried to explain to you the alleged benefits of keeping BALL PYTHONS in rack systems with small, tight tubs, but you're acting like a small child who is plugging his ears after he hears something that he doesn't like. Not to mention, some of these people have been keeping ball pythons for decades upon decades.

Your attitude is completely abrasive and the superiority complex that you seem to be exhibiting is not helping your case. I GUARANTEE YOU that if you came in here with the attitude that I posted in my previous post (the positive, non-judgemental one) you would be getting a very warm reception and nice conversations from the people in this community.

Something tells me you don't have the capacity to have a positive, non-judgemental attitude, though.:rolleyes:

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So how is it people manage to keep Royals in naturalistic set ups then? Any snake will thrive, given the correct set up. I guarantee you, if i were to buy a royal python right now and put it in a Viv as a baby i will have it feeding. Because my set up will be correct. Maybe i will.

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Originally Posted by Inknsteel

That's because by definition and design, a rack system isn't supposed to be "spacious". What are you looking for? Someone who has a rack full of 55 gallon tubs? My enclosures in my racks are size-appropriate for the animals they contain. When the snake begins to "outgrow" their tub, they're upgraded to the next appropriate size.

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Exactly, so a rack is designed to cram in as many snakes as you possibly can. Lazy snake or not, lazy snakes do utilize the space given at some point if given the opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

If snakes can successfully live in the wild, we should be able to create a similar environment in captivity that they thrive in. Simple, there is no need for these simplistic enclosures that disregard what the habitat is like where the snakes originate.

Show me how i'm a hypocrite?

I've never kept a snake in a non naturalistic enclosure, or a lizard/gecko for that matter. Isn't that the point i've been arguing? So how can i be a hypocrite. It is indeed your opinion, but i can try to change your opinion - i'm not offended.

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So how is it people manage to keep Royals in naturalistic set ups then? Any snake will thrive, given the correct set up. I guarantee you, if i were to buy a royal python right now and put it in a Viv as a baby i will have it feeding. Because my set up will be correct. Maybe i will.



Exactly, so a rack is designed to cram in as many snakes as you possibly can. Lazy snake or not, lazy snakes do utilize the space given at some point if given the opportunity.

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How about we just say you're really an unpleasant close minded know-it-all (in your mind only) who has nothing positive to ad to any conversation he tries to control, which is every conversation he takes part in.

Does that come across clear and concise? Can you understand the words that are coming from my fingers? I know you don't care, no need to expound upon that, but do you really, deeply, honestly, understand what I'm saying to you?

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

I'm close minded because i will never keep a snake in an empty tank? Ok then...I'm very close minded then...Seeing as keeping them in that type of set up has no benefits over a big, naturalistic viv/tub, aside from cost and the ability to keep more snakes.

No one seems to be willing to show their spacious racking set ups though..

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Then other than looking nice and taking up more space what benefits are scientifically know about your keeping over others? In a way that your thinking is you should have the house set up as a viv and let prey live as they normally would so the snakes could hunt their prey just as they would in the wild.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

So how is it people manage to keep Royals in naturalistic set ups then? Any snake will thrive, given the correct set up. I guarantee you, if i were to buy a royal python right now and put it in a Viv as a baby i will have it feeding. Because my set up will be correct. Maybe i will.

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People`s pythons thrive in tubs as well.

I'm going to say this one last thing to you because you're ridiculous and hard-headed:

You'd get a ball python, and set it up in a naturalistic viv just to prove to us that you can get it to feed?

Oh.....my.............

No........worddddddsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.....




Please, for your sake, I pray that you are not like this in real life.

So everyone should go home today and put all their ball pythons on dirt and throw a rock in there or something. Is that what you are getting at? I really don't see how my snake will be any better off by being on dirt with some debris everywhere...but if you say so, it must be true!


And as for your mite eradication methods..that sounds quite elaborate when I could just spray some provent a mite and be done with it.

Also, moving around more doesn't necessarily mean the snake is happier or more "enriched". If that is your only evidence...then I am going to stick with paper.

This is going to be my last post on this topic, as it's getting boring to be honest.

I think my way is better, my opinion, simple. You think yours in simple, fine, by all means carry on. :gj:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

How about we just say you're really an unpleasant close minded know-it-all (in your mind only) who has nothing positive to ad to any conversation he tries to control, which is every conversation he takes part in.

Does that come across clear and concise? Can you understand the words that are coming from my fingers? I know you don't care, no need to expound upon that, but do you really, deeply, honestly, understand what I'm saying to you?

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Yes sir lol.

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Originally Posted by mattb

Then other than looking nice and taking up more space what benefits are scientifically know about your keeping over others? In a way that your thinking is you should have the house set up as a viv and let prey live as they normally would so the snakes could hunt their prey just as they would in the wild.

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Nothing concrete, but Skip's post earlier raised a few interesting points.

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Originally Posted by CatandDiallo

People`s pythons thrive in tubs as well.

I'm going to say this one last thing to you because you're ridiculous and hard-headed:

You'd get a ball python, and set it up in a naturalistic viv just to prove to us that you can get it to feed?

Oh.....my.............

No........worddddddsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.....




Please, for your sake, I pray that you are not like this in real life.

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I said that, because you stated that people have used tight tubs etc to get non feeders feeding. When actually it only means that they didn't feel secure enough in the set up they were initially provided with.

I said that I was going to stop talking to you, but I really don`t like it when people put words in my mouth.

Where on earth did I say that people used tight tubs to get non feeders feedingÉ

I`m sorry, but I never said that. Unless you can show me and I have had a lapse in memory (which is possible), I won`t let you put words into my mouth.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

I'm close minded because i will never keep a snake in an empty tank? Ok then...I'm very close minded then...Seeing as keeping them in that type of set up has no benefits over a big, naturalistic viv/tub, aside from cost and the ability to keep more snakes.

No one seems to be willing to show their spacious racking set ups though..

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Here is my largest female in the largest tub I currently use:
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...a/IMG_1121.jpg

I will admit that the tub is not as long as she is, but she has enough room to stretch out. I am currently in the process of planning a rack that will use the Sterilite 41qt tubs, which have more length to them. For a majority of my snakes these tubs are plenty big enough because they are not as long as she is.

Some day when I own my own place or at least have a room dedicated to my reptiles I would love to naturalistic cages setup for all of my snakes. Since a majority of my snakes are currently in my living room (my bedroom having been taken over by crested gecko cages and the cages for my boas) the rack saves on space. I use the minimal setup because it is easiest for me. With aspen and cypress mulch bedding my snakes would spill their water and I would have to replace the bedding often, it started to get expensive and wasn't worth it to me.

I'm sure there is some benefit to keeping snakes in naturalistic habitats, but all of my snakes appear healthy and that's what matters the most to me. I've said it several times and I will say it again, my biggest problem with what you said was that people like me lack passion because our setups aren't naturalistic. I love my reptiles and I love to share my reptiles. My passion is sharing my love of reptiles with other people, not replicating natural settings, though I think with my crested geckos I come close. They may have fake plants, but they all have plants they can hide in. :P

First thing in the morning, I'm going to import Ghana turf(plants included with a payment plan) from Africa and start my own Termite colony in which they will construct a mound. This weekend I will convert my entire bedroom into Neo Africa with a working stream and heating system to replace the sun. Then, I will release every single one of my snakes into Neo Africa along with half of my breeding rodent colony. Hopefully there will now be a sustaining ecosystem. Maybe I'll throw a few wildebeests in for good measure.

Thank you Crot. I have been inspired.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

The more you post the more I realize you know less than you think.

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Originally Posted by John1982

The more you post the more I realize you know less than you think.

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Sorry, this was meant for Crotalids but probably pertains to most of you and definitely me too. Bunch of insufferable know-it-alls as far as ourselves are concerned. I'm always willing to learn, have a good debate but if you don't think the way I do I'll call you small brained and shut my ears to your retorts cause I don't listen to such nonsense. Did I mention you should accept everything I say because I'm a boss and if you do things otherwise you're close minded?

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

Maybe you care to read the second document, and tell me the LD 50 value given for nasicornis? I will save you the time, 8.6mg per Kg. That is a low potency! That figure is for intramuscular envenomation, most intravenous envenomations will be near fatal/fatal.

Bitis gabonica had a intramuscular LD50 of 5.2. Much strong than that of nasicornis, yet it is accepted that it isn a potent venom. It is the amount injected that makes the three Bitis species dangerous.

I never said it was non fatal, I said it wasn't potent. As you don't seem to be able to understand the difference between the two words. A venom doesn't need to be potent to be fatal. There are many more factors involved that decide whether an envenomation will be fatal or not!

I like how you couldn't answer any of the other questions I ask. I'm surprised you don't have any pictures of snakes you have kept, seems odd.

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On a scale of 1-5, one being the lowest and five the highest they rate a 3. Taipan's are a 5 and Copperheads are a 1. So how exactly is 3 not potent? The LD50 for B.n. is 0.02 of an oz for a 150lb man. And that LD50 of 8.6mg per kg is intra-muscular. Intra-venous it's much higher for the B.n. than the B.g.; 1.1mg/kg vs. 6.7mg/kg respectively. Also those LD50 scores are based on MICE not humans. Monkeys are far more sensitive to B.n/B.g venom than mice are. I am pretty sure we are more comparative to primates than mice.

here something you can maybe grasp. LD50 for various snakes

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Interesting! I will have to check out what I can find on this. As in, are they climbing and getting into nests, etc or are they ambushing on the ground. Not trying to say they aren't adept, quite the opposite. I would just be interested in learning more of their abilities and if the risk is minimal enough for the added activity. Seeing as how it wouldn't help them as it does in the wild, in obtaining prey. Unless I start hanging the rats from branches...heh that might actually be neat to see!

Thanks!

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There was study that I posted a link to and shared with several people. That study outlined that ball pythons are efficient and active hunters of avian prey. To the point that it made up a large percentage of their diet. PM me your e-mail and I will send you the paper in it's entirety.

Before I posted the link and the study in all it's helvetica glory, several people, worshippers of the tub, the ASF rat as a complete and natural food source and the League of Strictly Earthbound Ball Python Owners attempted to rat pack my fat butt, claiming that I was a liar, or better yet, cripplingly stupid. Luckily, I pulled the peer reviewed study out from behind my ear and shut them up. Now many of those doubters and even some of the shrillest of them will solemnly and sagely inform every newbie that ball pythons are bird eaters and can climb trees.

Which brings us to an interesting point. Unless my reading comprehension skills are vastly declining am I hearing that some people don't think that there are measurable ways to detect acute stress levels in captive snakes? That there are no ways to determine if the act of handling, cage cleaning or other human interactions are upsetting a snake?

I say that there are. I could even propose an experiment in which we maybe could determine if the mystic potion butt rust enchi burnt toast ball in your collection (you know the one you bought for $10K a year ago as an "investment" but now cannot give away) is less stressed in a off-gassing plastic storage box or in a properly outfitted glass aquarium.

Who's game?

What do you have in mind Skiploader, seriously. There are several stress studies done using mice and rats that invovle the placement of cannulas into the brain in specific regions to measure neural activity in vivo. I'm not sure if anybody has thought about doing similar research with snakes but I am just genuinely curious. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by ewaldrep

What do you have in mind Skiploader, seriously. There are several stress studies done using mice and rats that invovle the placement of cannulas into the brain in specific regions to measure neural activity in vivo. I'm not sure if anybody has thought about doing similar research with snakes but I am just genuinely curious. Thanks.

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They've been doing it for years with snakes.

For a while the gold standard was analyzing tongue flicks - rate and movement. As I alluded to before, Roger Conant was attempting to measure stress levels in captive snakes by how many tongue flicks a specific action would induce.

Now it's cortisol levels.

Again, the herd ASSumes we just can't be sure just what snakes like. There is a library of evidence, from published papers to a compendium of old zookeeper practices and guidelines that again proves that going with the herd isn't always the best course of action.

In the late 80s and 90s, several studies were done on captive reptiles in an attempt to measure how stressed they get in captivity. A catch all book was published of these studies called the Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles that summarized most of these findings or linked to even more studies. Another paper that contains this data is Evaluating Pain and Stress in Reptiles. The book is still available but is expensive. Many of the papers that are discussed in the book are hard to find even on line.

For those that want to nerd up on their reptile behavior reading can look into resources taken from VA Lance when he was at the SD Zoo and from Warwick's work. You can read up on tongue flicking cues as they are associated with cage cleaning and spatial relationships. Zookeepers 35 to 50 years ago were already forming and proving the conclusion that are widely and almost completely ignored today on the forums. It was Lance that showed the correlation between respiratory rates and hormonal changes in habituated animals due to handling stresses.

Today, the common measurement for determining stress in fairly non-responsive captive reptiles is performed by measuring plasma concentrations of corticosteriods in blood samples immediately after the event to grade how reptiles respond to activities like being held, being restrained, having a hand inside their cages, being moved to a new cage, etc.

Bottom line - stress levels are higher in the first 21 days of an animal's captivity, and then fall off if the animal is left alone. However routine maintenance procedures will spike up stress levels even after animals are well acclimated. Ball pythons don't show elevated stress levels when handled briefly without being restrained but steroid levels will spike when they are exposed to new environments or routine activities like cleaning a cage or rearranging the decor.

In other words, many snake species never really acclimate to cleanings and prolonged handlings, irregardless of who the keeper is. In more active snakes, those spikes manifest in aggressive or defensive behavior. In ball pythons, plasma measurements are needed to quantify what the snake is "feeling".

Keeping large and fairly intelligent colubrids like cribos and dispholidines makes you realize that even the most alert and observant snakes never really get comfortable with you. The problem with ball pythons is that even when they are agitated, they do a poor job of showing it.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

First thing in the morning, I'm going to import Ghana turf(plants included with a payment plan) from Africa and start my own Termite colony in which they will construct a mound. This weekend I will convert my entire bedroom into Neo Africa with a working stream and heating system to replace the sun. Then, I will release every single one of my snakes into Neo Africa along with half of my breeding rodent colony. Hopefully there will now be a sustaining ecosystem. Maybe I'll throw a few wildebeests in for good measure.

Thank you Crot. I have been inspired.

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I used to have a link to a forum of a small group of aficionados who were dedicated to providing their herps with some of the most realistic environments you have ever seen. Complete climate controlled, simulating light and season/weather cycles with live plants and live substrates. I sold a pair of olfersii to a member and he sent me the link. I'll have to look it up and post it.

I sheepishly admit to being a user of the plebeian tub for some of my animals and looking at these beautiful and complicated environments was very inspiring.

Thanks for taking the time to educate me! I could definitely tell that our bp was stressed based on what appeared to be increased ANS activity when we handled her. I would expect handling could elicit a conditioned fear response but also that extinction would occur after repeated handling without causing harm. I failed to consider that human handling is the unconditioned stimulus and not a "context". I appreciate your input.

Holy crapes! I was expecting the book to be around 100, maybe 150, but $275? Goodness me. I'd much rather have the actual book, but the google e-book for $119 is very alluring... heh. Definitely on my wish list though!

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I used to have a link to a forum of a small group of aficionados who were dedicated to providing their herps with some of the most realistic environments you have ever seen. Complete climate controlled, simulating light and season/weather cycles with live plants and live substrates. I sold a pair of olfersii to a member and he sent me the link. I'll have to look it up and post it.

I sheepishly admit to being a user of the plebeian tub for some of my animals and looking at these beautiful and complicated environments was very inspiring.

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If you could find that link, that would be great. That sounds like an extremely elaborate set up. I'm rather interested in the artificial weather cycle.

While I was half joking, a set up like how I described(minus wildebeests) would still be neat. I'm also curious to see how a number of ball pythons do in a colonial setting with loose breeding prey in naturalistic room habitat.

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My very first ball python enclosure was a 30 gallon glass aquarium that was planted with live plants. This came to an end a few months later when I discovered wood mites in the dirt which freaked my husband out to no end (he hates bugs).

The ball python was around 250 grams. Every night he would come out and cruise around in the tank, over and around the plants. I was a newbie keeper and it's possible I was neglecting some part of essential husbandry that he was looking for. It's also possible that he was exploring, and/or feeling stressed. He never went off feed and he was healthy for as long as I owned him.

I don't believe that snakes need mental stimulation. They lack the physical parts of the brain that account for emotions and reasoning abilities. However, perhaps a natural enclosure provides room for them to exercise physically. Exercise is good for every animal.

For the casual owner, perhaps a natural vivarium is the best choice, as it can be very enjoyable to watch a snake interact with its environment.

For a breeder, some sacrifices must be made to run an efficient business. Cost versus profit and all that. Tubs are adequate for ball pythons, and easier to maintain for the keeper.

That doesn't mean that breeders are bad people, or that they are bad animal caretakers. It just means they have different priorities than keepers who want to enjoy their snakes in a natural setting.

Crotalids, you need to utilize some social skills if you don't want people to reject your ideas out of hand because of your attitude.

I'm feeling a little left out with this whole hijacking thing so I just want add, since "tupperware" was brought up, that tupperware TOTALLY ROCKS!

Seriously! What ever happened to that stuff? I'd totally use tupperware tubs over sterilite, rubbermaid, and whatever else we use if tupperware was available in stores and made tubs like that. I bet they would be awesome for snake tubs!

;)

I have kept snakes in both aquariums, vivariums what ever you want to call them and tubs. It is way easier to keep stable temps and humidity in a tub than it is in a glass box. The evidence is clear too, the feeding response of most snakes is much better in tubs than in tanks. My snakes seem happy and unstressed, thats all the proof I need.

I keep my guys in tubs except my corn snake he's in a tank cause otherwise I feel he gets a little too cozy. I handle my snakes every day, I only have 5 and they have not changed in personality. If anything they really seemed to be a whole lot more relaxed. I originally got a normal poss het axanthic, pastel, and granite all in one tank. This woman said her land lord asked to get rid of some because she had too many. Boy was the land lord right. But anywho I took them in and they had no humidity, no water, one hide, no heat and all horrible sheds and worse tempers. I left them together for a few months while I waited for my rack system and got their health back up to snuff ( one had some mouth rot and they all were showing signs of heavy breathing). Once seperated they all relaxed a lot more and are all doing great. Always eat always happy. :)

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

No one seems to be willing to show their spacious racking set ups though..

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Here's one of the tubs I use for my smallest ball python. I did have her in a tank for awhile, but I found it very hard to hold in humidity and heat. So, I moved her into a rack system. Because she's small and really, this tub is too big for her, I did add a little clutter to her enclosure. I also use newspaper and I've also never had a mite infestation or any other health concern. I used to use aspen, but I found that it was easier to clean with newspaper. If the cage was dirty, I cleaned it. I didn't have to worry about some urine to go undetected for days on end. All my animals eat on their scheduled feeding day and see to be functioning normally. If you can look in the far coconut hut, she's curled inside her hide on the warm side because she finished a rat pup within the hour. The water bowl DOES have water in it. Because I change my water daily, I don't usually fill the bowl full.

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/7746/img05721.jpg

Really?? 10 pages over tanks to tubs?!?! I would have just stopped feeding this guy the attention he wanted by just saying "you do what you want and I'll do what I want!!".


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Originally Posted by hypnotixdmp

Really?? 10 pages over tanks to tubs?!?! I would have just stopped feeding this guy the attention he wanted by just saying "you do what you want and I'll do what I want!!".


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And yet, you didn't.

Grab the shovel from Mike and start following the Heffalumps.