Are we feeding too much?

I know I already commented on another thread on this topic, so I'll try not to repeat myself TOO much. But ...

I, like Alicia, now feed on a very erratic feeding schedule. I have more blood pythons than ball pythons at this point, and bloods are very, very, VERY prone to obesity.

What I do is to feed to body condition. This means that I feed my snakes more or less based on how fat or thin they are looking to me at the time. With my adult bloods, this means that they usually end up eating maybe 6-20 times a *year* depending on the individual.

I do this even with my babies, though. A few years ago I lost one of my absolute favorite snakes, a super-stripe Borneo female, for no apparent reason whatsoever. When we cut her open, I found nothing unusual -- but I did find gobs and gobs and gobs of intracoelomic fat. I now seriously question whether she may have died from the stress of obesity on her internal organs. She was about a year old. I fed her once a week, and never more than that, giving her feeding "time off" for sheds.

I now have two other superstripe gals that I'm raising up now who are both about 2.5 years old. If I pushed them, I'm sure I could get them up to breeding weight by this year -- but I have NO intentions of doing that now. One of them is a voracious feeder who would probably eat 2x-week if I let her. I was feeding her every other week, but I'm giving her some "time off" food now because I feel that she's putting on more fat than I'd like her to. I'd like to give the rest of her growth (skeletal, etc) some time to catch up.

That brings me to my BPs, and the other part of feeding to body condition. I have a few girls I'm raising up now, but my two best eaters are my mojo and my pinstripe. My mojo is the larger of the two, and it seems that all of the weight she puts on is muscle and length. Her body feels very firm and muscular, not "squishy" and tubby. My pin, on the other hand, feels very soft, as if she's getting chunkier, but not a lot longer. Even though the pin is smaller, I'm more inclined to slow down her feeding schedule simply because it seems as though she's putting on fat, not muscle, and that isn't what I want in a growing animal.

I honestly don't know whether or not heavy feeding for a high growth rate of good, healthy muscle, bone and organ tissue is bad or not. In other words -- if you've got a baby that's eating a lot, and growing fast, but not putting on just pure fat -- I don't know that that's a bad thing. Can we somewhat extend the lifespan by nearly starving our pets to death? Yeah, maybe, but I don't know if I'd call that good animal husbandry. I've also read accounts that suggest that caloric restriction as a life-extender is just a myth based on false extrapolation of data in rodents. So I don't really feel like starving my pets just to give them a *theoretical* extra year or two of life.

As far as adult females go, I can see the logic of feeding them heavily when they are eating for those girls who are going to go on 4-6 month fasts. I just wouldn't want my girls to get too much fat, because not only is it unhealthy for her, but she's going to tend to slug out more and I would be much more concerned about dystocia (eggbinding) in a fat female.

Same with breeder boys -- enough weight to keep him healthy, but not so much fat that he's too sluggish and loses interest.

For pets -- they're gonna need a LOT less food to stay at that nice, healthy 4.5-6 body condition score. That's when the once-a-week constant feeding becomes truly excessive, IMO. I don't have any "pet only" BPs, but I know my "pet" blood who's a constant eater gets fed maybe 6-7x per year and STILL looks overweight to me.

No matter what, I always always always keep good, thorough records of my snakes' activities, including feeding. This is always important but especially so feeding on a more sporadic schedule.

tl;dr version: I feed to body condition with my adults AND growing youngsters, sporadic feeding is OK in my opinion, excess fat = bad and most blood pythons are too fat. /End rant.

I feed hatchlings on a 3 day schedule until their 3rd meal (I do want them up for sale quickly, and they'll eat it), and then switch them to a 4 day schedule until they've had 6 meals--then snakes up to age 3 on a 5-day schedule--I switch to a 7-day if they become picky (which occasionally happens).

Adults are a different story. Most of my animals are breeders, so they get fed every 5 days right after clutching, but only for a few weeks--then they're switched back to a 7-day schedule until their weight has gone back to what it was the previous autumn. At that point, I switch them to a 14 day schedule. If necessary, I also reduce prey sizes. It's ok for them to gain a little weight--they do grow a little each year--but I don't want them getting fat, because fat snakes do not breed well. I have a huge female who slugged out and did not lose as much weight as expected, as a result--she's actually on a diet until Autumn! 14 days, and mostly small rats for her. (She had given us an enormous 13 egg clutch, all viable, the previous year--so it's understandable that she's nearly 500 grams heavier than she should be after laying only a clutch of 10 smallish slugs--she was proper weight to START breeding right after laying them!)

Adult males get fed every 7 days, unless they're pathetically skinny after the breeding season. Since males are the first to go off feed in the winter, and don't start up again until the females ovulate and they're taken off rotation, they never have a chance to get fat. I don't have any breeder males whose weight looks excessive, and I'd be surprised if I ever had to switch one to a 14-day schedule.

Non-breeder adults are on a 14-day feeding schedule. If they look like they're getting chubby, they get smaller prey items.

Also... none of my snakes went off feed this year, except for females who were gravid. As soon as clutches were laid, and the snakes washed, those females ate immediately when i offered food.

I also keep cooler temps than is the "norm"

Lucky! I actually took one borderline 1500 gram female off of the breeding rotation right at the start, because she stopped eating. She finished out the season at about 1300 grams, then started eating again. I can't imagine what she'd weigh if she'd had a clutch.
A lot of my boys stop halfway through. The girls usually stop later, shortly before ovulation, but I have a few girls and boys who stop close to the beginning of the season.
I cool for breeding, but I may back off on that this year, and see how it goes. I got an RI or two in the early spring, and I don't like to see that, so perhaps a bit warmer will prevent it.

I should mention (in case anyone bothered to actually read through my stupidly long post, ha ha) that when I say I feed one of my bloods 6x a year, I am feeding him prey that I feel is appropriate for his size -- L - XL rats, a bit thinner than he is big around. Feeding an adult blood python six small rats a year would not be an appropriate feeding schedule ...

It's funny, though -- I'm thinking about it now, and I can't picture ever having seen a ball python that I thought was grossly obese. I've seen a ton of WAY too fat bloods, a ton of WAY too fat Burms, and even some retics that looked quite a bit plumper than I think maybe they should for their species ... But there don't seem to be a ton of REALLY fat BPs out there.

Am I wrong about that? ... Or is it possible that their famous "going off feed" for months on end is their way of saying, "Yeah, that's enough!"?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

I should mention (in case anyone bothered to actually read through my stupidly long post, ha ha) that when I say I feed one of my bloods 6x a year, I am feeding him prey that I feel is appropriate for his size -- L - XL rats, a bit thinner than he is big around. Feeding an adult blood python six small rats a year would not be an appropriate feeding schedule ...

It's funny, though -- I'm thinking about it now, and I can't picture ever having seen a ball python that I thought was grossly obese. I've seen a ton of WAY too fat bloods, a ton of WAY too fat Burms, and even some retics that looked quite a bit plumper than I think maybe they should for their species ... But there don't seem to be a ton of REALLY fat BPs out there.

Am I wrong about that? ... Or is it possible that their famous "going off feed" for months on end is their way of saying, "Yeah, that's enough!"?

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ive seen TONS of overly fat ball pythons, and also younger ones. AND like you, ive seen quite a few seriously overweight bloods! Boas too... actually ( who REALLY need to be on a reserved feeding schedule)

I DO think animals going off feed has something to do with feeding frequency, but give me a few more years before i base my collection of critters on that opinion. having fed this way for probably two years now, i still need a bit longer to say for certain.

I do find this stuff interesting :)

Yeah, I guess I have too come to think of it ... They just don't get as HUGELY fat as Burms and bloods.

I'm thinking of the animals you see pictures of where the head is ill-defined and blends into the neck because the neck has so much fat around it ... Eeeh. Yuck.

I guess, though, BPs aren't as prone to that due to their naturally slender necks. With them, you have to look more for the fat rolls ... O.o

I find it interesting too :) Then again, I better find it interesting; it's gonna be my career O.o

Oh gosh, you ain't kiddin' about fat boas! I'm just getting into them, trying to figure out an optimum feeding schedule for the adults, and I think I have to SERIOUSLY drop down my feeding for my big education gal -- once every two months is too much for her! She's still squishy even eating on that schedule ...

My Argentine girl, on the other hand, still feels quite lean to me even getting fed a jumbo rat every 14 days.

So there you go -- as previously mentioned, know your animals, because there is no "one size fits all" method of doing just about anything in animal husbandry!

Morning:D

Thanks for the great replies....

I think it is safe to say that there are certain conditions when consistent (weekly) feeding may be required, namely

- Growing years between birth and adulthood
- Preparing females for breeding
- Bringing females back to weight after laying eggs

In these circumstances the animals need extra food.

I like Wingedwolfpsion way of feeding females back to their weight after breeding and then switching to a longer routine. Show a good management principle as opposed to just feeding....

The question was asked earlier - when is a ball python considered to be an adult? Now that is a little difficult to answer.....

Do you go by age? or by weight? or a blend of both? Or perhaps you consider adulthood to be reached when the animal breeds for the first time, or when it reaches a certain length?

At the moment I'd go for a blend of age/weight and then link this to breeding. When it comes to females I'd consider adulthood to have been reached by 3rd winter with a weight of 1600g+, with males I'd consider adults to be 2nd winter with a weight of 1000g+. This is also coincides with the time that I'd attempt breeding with them.

This obviously a very flexible rule and will vary in relation to each snake....

I've been reading this thread and I find it very interesting.

But it does make sense, when you do consider that ball pythons (and snakes in general) don't get regular meals in the wild.

Right now my pastel male is not feeding and has skipped 3 meals. Chowed like a pig when he was growing, now just over 1500g. When he wasn't quite big enough for small rats I fed him two adult mice which he took eagerly (I'm willing to bet he'd have eaten more). However, I'm beginning to think of feeding as much as snake is willing to eat as another way of power feeding (you are simply capitalizing on the snake's instinct). He went from around 14inches to 4ft in a little less than a year. He has been going on and off for me for a while now and is only a little thinner than I'd like.

On the other side of the spectrum is my normal male that has been eating every week, one small rat, and doesn't feel fatty but has shot up around 100g in last few weeks, now 1675g and about 3 1/2. I think he is a bit too girthy.

After reading this, I'm considering doing a test and changing my adult feeding schedule to once every 10-14 days or longer to see how they take to it. They are currently fed on a 7-8 day schedule.

I've always fed babies and juvies once a week. I'm going to try to keep my spider's meals slightly thinner than her thickest point and not give her multiple feeders just because she could eat them.