May not work after all

Good points, Joe

And it´s good to have a healthy educated discussion. That´s what makes a good forum.

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

Just wanted to say I am not attacking anyone elses practice...I just enjoy discussing topics like this on a respectful level... i t advances my own thinking, and I often learn something new...So no offense intended by any means in my comments.

"I check on my snake room at all hours of the day and night."

I seriously doubt you are monitoring your snakes at all hours of the day. Come on now...:rolleyes: You may check them at any hour of the day, but I would bet anything you are not monitoring your snakes at all hours of the day and night...Don't you sleep?

"I disagree. Unless we have a large room where we can use HPS and MH lighting on constantly adjusted timers, Underground burrows, no contact from humans, natural substrate, streams, an ecosystem of naturally sustainable natural prey items, etc., we can't provide them with a natural environment. Putting them in large cages is not the next best thing in my opinion. Once we take these animals out of the wild and put them in private collections, we have a resposibility to give them everything they need, and take care of them to the best of our current knowledge and ability. While a 41qt tub, or even a 96 qt tub might allow us to do this, I don't think that my ball pythons "hate their lives" any more, being in 28 qt tubs. "

In every other area of the herping hobby I have explored, I have found it is a constant goal to mimic the natural environment of the animal you are keeping as much as possible. We will never recreate nature in a cage...but that is the goal. Maybe my "hating life" phrase was not the right one to use, but knowing that at night they do become active, and will explore as part of their natural behavior (I see it every night), I think we should provide the area to do such. I personally don't know if we should keep an animal that will move and explore, in an environment where that is not an option at some fair level. We keep pointing out that they spend "Most" of their time burrowed away like the conditions we recreate in tubs, but are we forgetting that most of the time is not all of the time, and that they do become active and roam at night? Because they don't need room to roam in order to see them eat, poop and shed, does not mean we are providing them the optimal living conditions in a small tub.

Some find keeping animals captive unethical all together. I personally believe that if you are able to provide an area that mimics their natural environment for them to thrive and exercise natural behaviors then I personally don't find it unethical.

" Mental health is reserved for animals capable of a thought processes more complicated than a python has. You are anthropomorphising these animals here."

Correction...I was not "anthropomorphising" these animals, While we tend to think that us humans are above all other animals... "mental health" is not strictly human... It is something present in any animal with a brain, whether it is apparent to us humans or not.

Why do we love to sell Reptiles short? What about stress? Fish, Reptiles, cats, dogs, can all become stressed from living conditions, even while being provided everything necessary to live healthy. Animals die all the time of sress related illnesses. Not just physical stress like from temperature or trauma, but mental stress, like to much handling, other naturally solitary dominant animals in view. It wears a lot on animals. While I think that the signs of stress may not be as apparent in snakes as they are in other herps like Chameleons or Geckos, there is no doubt in my mind they can be stressed about their surroundings. While their brains are more primative than ours, we can't assume them incapable of mental satisfaction.

"People need room to excersise. Dogs need room to excersise. Kingsnakes need a large enclosure that allows them to stretch out, climb, and cruise around. Ball pythons simply don't need big enclosures, and it can be argued that keeping them in large enclosures can be dentrimental to them in plenty of circumstances. The same cannot honestly be said, at this point, about keeping balls in smaller tubs of appropriate size to meet their basic needs."

Again convenience came in. It is easier for us to monitor temperature and humidity in smaller tubs. Just because it is tougher to monitor this in a bigger enclosure does not mean that it can't be done, or it shouldn't be done, or that a BP prefers a smaller bin. Tubs benefit the keeper; because a perfectly sound large enlosure is absolutely possible, just more of a challenge. If anything with tubs you are sacrificing the room that they would use to roam at night if allowed, for the keepers convenience of saving space and ease of monitoring the environment.

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OK, I didn't attack your methods, I just laid out what I do. And I'm an insomniac with sporadic sleeping habits. I didn't say I watch my snakes 24/7. I've observed them plenty of times at every given hour of the day and night. Tubs are convenient for the keepers, but that doesn't make it wrong for the animal. Again, when I keep chameleons, they live in a 65g reptarium or large vertical custom screen enclosure. Dart frogs get appropriately sized glass vivariums. My colubrids get big enclosures with some climbing space. My Macklott's python had a 90g lizard lounge. My ball pythons now get cozy tubs. Even when I only had 1.1, I kept them in 12qt tubs while 10g and 20g glass aquariums sat unused in my closet. That's just how I roll.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Tubs are convenient for the keepers, but that doesn't make it wrong for the animal.

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This is the key issue and I agree with that statement.

But I can´t agree when people say that tubs are the BEST for the animals, when compared to bigger cages.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

OK, I didn't attack your methods, I just laid out what I do. And I'm an insomniac with sporadic sleeping habits. I didn't say I watch my snakes 24/7. I've observed them plenty of times at every given hour of the day and night. Tubs are convenient for the keepers, but that doesn't make it wrong for the animal. Again, when I keep chameleons, they live in a 65g reptarium or large vertical custom screen enclosure. Dart frogs get appropriately sized glass vivariums. My colubrids get big enclosures with some climbing space. My Macklott's python had a 90g lizard lounge. My ball pythons now get cozy tubs. Even when I only had 1.1, I kept them in 12qt tubs while 10g and 20g glass aquariums sat unused in my closet. That's just how I roll.

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I didn't think you were attacking my methods... And again... I hope you don't feel I am attacking yours. I visited your website and from what I can tell you have your stuff together, and are pretty successful keeping your animals. If anything I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me. There is always something to learn and I have been enlightened many times before. Discussions like this are what keep the hobby moving forward.

"Tubs are convenient for the keepers, but that doesn't make it wrong for the animal."

Its not that I think small tubs are "wrong for the animal" because "they are convenient for the keeper". It is when we accept something is the right way simply because its convenient. From my observations of my own BP, Roaming her enclosure is part of her daily routine. I find her wrapping and stretching in the most creative of ways, and this is a nighlty behavior. Would it be "right for the animal" for me to not allow her this part of her routine by moving her into a small tub for my own convenience? While this roaming behavior may not be critical to her physical health, or what we percieve as healthy... And we can assume all we want about why they exhibit a certain behavior, regardless, I think our goal should be to allow to them excercise as many natural behaviors as we can cater to in captivity.

Just my thoughts.