Ralph Davis Clutch Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by Koiscale451

I don't think deformed animals should be bred further or sold out, they should be culled as soon as you see the deformity. Keep the gene pool clean ;)

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Imperfect animals are not necessarily caused by genetics. There are any numbers of variables that can lead to any number of imperfections, however slight.

At least he shows his failures and successes. I can't think of ONE other breeder that puts his business out there.

He is doing a great thing sharing his experience with everyone via youtube.

Thank you Ralph, for showing the good, the bad and the ugly.

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

You guys realize that breeding offspring back to the parents is standard practice across all human bred animals right?

Dogs. Cats. Birds. All of the varieties come from inbreeding to get the desired trait.

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Yep you are correct it is called backcrossing.

Sure inbreeding is a possible cause that should be looked into. By posting these results and mentioning the other bad clutch from this project Ralph is providing the sort of info that can help get to the bottom of how to avoid this situation. However, I'm not at all convinced inbreeding is for sure the cause.

Last year I loaned a big normal female out to breed with a spider (probably the most outbred line on the planet) and we had a pretty messed up clutch including lots of missing eyes and short lower jaws. Because the animals where not related I figured the cause was environmental. In our case it was a 13 egg clutch and I was wondering if it generated too much heat or needed more oxygen than smaller clutches hatched ok in the same tight containers. Because Ralph took the time to post this video I now know the same sort of deformities can happen to a much smaller clutch under his considerable incubation experience so I'm now looking in other directions. Could it be temps the mother was exposed to pre lay? Rare molds?

I think the corn snake clutch with such a high reported percentage of problems tends to indicate that case is NOT genetic but some common environmental factor. Most serious deformities are recessive or spontaneous because of the high selection rate against a life threatening dominant mutation. Sounds like you got well over 25% kinks so unless it was some sort of genetic compatibility issue between those parents I’m betting some freak environmental factor. Figuring out what would be a great service to the herp community. Have you ever breed the same pair again and if so what where those results?

Whether to take the chance of a genetic cause or euthanize is a personal decision. You also have to factor in the animals quality of life. In my case I sure didn't think genetics was likely so sent a spider with one small eye and two of its normal colored but one eyed sisters to a friend (for free) who expressed an interest. Unfortunately he reported that they didn't make it so perhaps there deformities where more than cosmetic and my hope that they could have near normal lives was overly optimistic.

With the caramels I also have to thank Ralph for initially bringing the issue to the public eye (years after the start of the caramel market) and continuing to promote discussion through his videos. From my understanding, kinking is very common in caramels so the only question is if you destroy the animals or not (and also if you choose to even work with them in the first place). I don't have any more respect for someone who brushes the issue under the table and destroys their kinks than for someone who documents the issue. At this point I think it's likely that a tendency to kink is part of the caramel mutation just like the color and not something that can be selectively bred out. Through frank discussion and sharing of information though we might just find an environmental variable to explain why some caramels aren't kinked and eventually overcome this problem.

Someone mentioned lesser inbreeding. Being a co dominant I suspect lesser in general are very outbred. Lots of lesser males have been bred to lots of different big normal females that came into lots of different collections from imports over a range of years. I also don't think RDR and his partners on this project have been working on the albino granite project long enough to be more than one or at most two generations of inbreeding (probably just one). Sure there could be a bad gene in there causing the deformities and if so it should be eliminated but with my experience with the same deformities I just can't say for sure inbreeding has anything to do with this problem or even that it's genetic and that the offspring shouldn't be bred. I kept an undeformed spider from my outbred nightmare clutch and she is doing well and I intend to breed her eventually.

Great post Randy...I admire the disclosure by Ralph Davis. I also am not convinced that it is due to inbreeding or multiple generations of inbreeding (sometimes called introgression). I'm not even sure there were multiple generations of inbreeding......How do we know that RD did that? Seems like hearsay to me.

Also until you experiment a little you wont know if its genetic or not.....Furthermore, genetic predispositions can often be overcome by manipulating a key envirnomental variable or two.

Deformities are a part of life and to get to the bottom of biological puzzles sometimes there are some causalities. Breeders of every animal "experiment" and as mentioned before have to deal with the good, the bad, and the ugly and unlucky!

It seems like there is this overinflated fear of "polluting the gene pool". The gene pool of BPs is large and I dont think people would continually buy and sell animals generation after generation with deformities. The market is simply too large for BPs.

Bravo to Randy and Mendels! Very well said, both of you.

Ralph himself would have to confirm, but I believe that project of his is too new to have 'multiple generations of inbreeding' as a factor. Sometimes Stuff happens. Period. It could be genetic, or it could just be a fluke. You can never assume or you won't ever get to the bottom of the problem and that won't help anyone.

Severe deformities, be they genetic or not, should be put down. But the lesser stuff can be given a chance. Like it has been said, the gene pool is pretty big for BPs, and as long as the problems aren't deliberately being created or spread (gods forbid anyone would do that) it's ok to experiment every now and then. That's how we learn. As long as the animal is progressing and doing things it should be doing, then all engines ahead full. :)

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Originally Posted by starmom

He'll share with you what the facts are and your drama will cease.

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Drama? Get real. Posting an opinion is drama? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I think the corn snake clutch with such a high reported percentage of problems tends to indicate that case is NOT genetic but some common environmental factor. Most serious deformities are recessive or spontaneous because of the high selection rate against a life threatening dominant mutation. Sounds like you got well over 25% kinks so unless it was some sort of genetic compatibility issue between those parents I’m betting some freak environmental factor. Figuring out what would be a great service to the herp community. Have you ever breed the same pair again and if so what where those results?

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Yes, I did this past year. One hatched kinked, 2 died in egg kinked (I don't agree with cutting eggs either - they can't make it out on their own, they weren't meant to live)...BUT the other 8 turned out great. What's interesting is the parents are in no way related...They were purchased from opposites sides of the country from different lines. If it was environmental, I would imagine the other clutches would have shown kinking...But only one other did, the clutch sired by the same male to a different female...Only one was severely kinked.

Whether these deformities are genetic or not (how will you 100% determine that it is not genetic unless you breed them or have obvious environmental issues, like heat spikes for example), they should be culled and not sold.

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Originally Posted by Argentra

Severe deformities, be they genetic or not, should be put down. But the lesser stuff can be given a chance.

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I agree...But missing eyes and sections of a jaw is a severe deformity in my opinion. A slightly kinked spine (as long as the animal can still move, feed and defecate fine) could live a "happy" life as a pet, if you could find someone trustworthy enough to actually not breed or sell the animal. Problem is, how can you 100% guarantee that person is going to follow your request unless you're personal friends with them.

So the same corn snake pair produced some kinks in two different years (one year high percentage, another year lower) and other clutches incubated under the same conditions where fine? Then you may well have something genetic. If it where just one year I would think it could be some fluke like the pre lay temps in the female's cage. Hard to explain how the genetics might work. Maybe a recessive gene that they both happened to have and just very unlucky the first year to get a higher than 25% rate. Or maybe there could be some incompatibility between the two, something like an rh factor difference in humans.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

So the same corn snake pair produced some kinks in two different years (one year high percentage, another year lower) and other clutches incubated under the same conditions where fine? Then you may well have something genetic. If it where just one year I would think it could be some fluke like the pre lay temps in the female's cage. Hard to explain how the genetics might work. Maybe a recessive gene that they both happened to have and just very unlucky the first year to get a higher than 25% rate. Or maybe there could be some incompatibility between the two, something like an rh factor difference in humans.

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Yes, I've only had issues with offspring produced from the Lavender Motley male. Not only from the same pair two years in a row, but also from another female this year who is neither Lavender or Motley (she's a Blizzard - produced a perfect clutch in 2007 with another male) that produced a grossly kinked/fused hatchling.