Breeding for attitude rather than morph..

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Originally Posted by rabernet

What percentage does it "happen" to? A very small number in comparison to the number of animals in captivity. Again -a picky ball python is the anomoly when husbandry is correct.

You haven't been here long enough to see the numerous instances on this forum when an owner complains of a picky ball python, when advised of husbandry changes to make and then does it, that then has a reliable feeder. But you're also still relatively new to keeping ball pythons yourself, aren't you? If I remember your intro post correctly.

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I'm not quite sure I see what you are arguing against Robin. If I understand you correctly, I think you are generally saying that you don't think BP's are that bad and therefore don't need this consideration when breeding. In my opinion, this isn't about disappointment in BP's as snakes. This is about breeding to reinforce traits that improve domestication.

I recall a thread a while back regarding a similarly abstract discussion regarding personality. I mentioned something about how, at a very primitive level, my snake might appreciate the fact that I clean out his hide because he can't go in it after he defacates. You proudly told me your snakes will go in there no matter what. After that, somebody else replied that theirs will "wallow" in it. Personally, my snakes absolutely will not hang out anywhere near their faeces and I see never having to clean it off of them as a plus.

In several other ways, my BP has shown very low tendency to get "stressed". In fact, when I first joined here I knew only how my snake behaved and got into alot of trouble because I was critisizing alot of recommendations as being way to conservative. Eventually, I picked up that snakes vary and I shouldn't assume that everybody's is like mine. (And, I'm not saying he never gets stressed. He stays in his hide most of the time and doesn't like being held for extended periods.)

My question to you is do you think that genetics plays any role in these behaviors? If genetics play even a 50% role then what is wrong with breeding to select the more desirable ones?

I think these "more desireable traits" that have been mentioned already exist in the vast majority of ball pythons, so I really don't see that there's going to be some dramatic difference that's going to make them more desirable than those already being bred and those already being imported. :confuzd:

I'm not sure there's this huge market for ball pythons that are "potty trained" not to go in their hide once defectated in. Or ball pythons that act anything other than a ball python.

I'm not talking about potty training. I'm saying that lots of issues around keeping BPs are based on the fact that they stress easily. The recommendation that you make your warm and cool hides identical is based directly on the fact that BPs will choose a better hiding spot over keeping themselves properly thermoregulated. If this is an aberrant behavior then why is it so prevalently recommended?

Also, despite the popularity of this site, only a small fraction of BP owners ever see it. That is even more reason to breed BPs that are more forgiving to husbandry mistakes.

Perhaps it wouldn't be helpful but I think it would. I think anything that helps snakes better integrate into domestic life is a plus for their species.

Bearheart, you brought up a good point. My bp Thor naturally likes his cool side, where ambient temps are around 76, and surface temps are about 81 or 82. Things like this should be taken into consideration when breeding snakes. A lot of people use glass tanks rather than racks, so it'd be nice to have bps that inherently like cooler temps.

Wolf also made a good point, and I laughed at loud at the tail wagging comment. People automatically make the assumption that we are talking about breeding the ball python out of the ball python. The slight changes that could take place over a few generations of breeding could be significant enough to make them easier to take care of, which COULD result in a significant reduction of sick snakes. Also, making them more personable could reduce the amount of kids giving away bps on craigslist/classifieds/message boards due to bites or other "non-personable" traits.

I do agree with Robin that the differences between bps can be very slight and at times unnoticeable, but the fact remains that there are "personality" traits that could make one bp more appealing than another.

My intro post said I was getting back into reptiles after a hiatus, and that the last thing I was focusing on before the hiatus was leopard geckos. I have said that I've been working with reptiles since I was a teenager.
Beyond that, you'll just have to take what I say at face value on its own merit. :D There is some fun in watching people make assumptions based on biases, though.

I'm getting lockups from my AHS, not my ball pythons yet. Bit early in the season, and some of my females are still in quarantine. Plus, I'm going to be trying something new. I'm getting my hands on a humidifier, and I'm going to try spiking the humidity to 80 or 90% in December for at least a week, and see if I notice any behavioral changes as a result. The talk about barometric pressure changes and the rainy season got me thinking. I don't want to spray the bins that much, but if I raise the humidity in the entire room, I shouldn't get the dampness or condensation.

I think it will be cool, a decade or two down the road, to be able to say my ball pythons have been bred for hardiness, adaptability, temperment, ease of feeding, and good breeding.
I'm not so sure there isn't a market for potty-trained snakes, but I'll let someone else conduct that experiment. <snicker>

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

My intro post said I was getting back into reptiles after a hiatus, and that the last thing I was focusing on before the hiatus was leopard geckos. I have said that I've been working with reptiles since I was a teenager.
Beyond that, you'll just have to take what I say at face value on its own merit. :D There is some fun in watching people make assumptions based on biases, though.

I'm getting lockups from my AHS, not my ball pythons yet. Bit early in the season, and some of my females are still in quarantine. Plus, I'm going to be trying something new. I'm getting my hands on a humidifier, and I'm going to try spiking the humidity to 80 or 90% in December for at least a week, and see if I notice any behavioral changes as a result. The talk about barometric pressure changes and the rainy season got me thinking. I don't want to spray the bins that much, but if I raise the humidity in the entire room, I shouldn't get the dampness or condensation.

I think it will be cool, a decade or two down the road, to be able to say my ball pythons have been bred for hardiness, adaptability, temperment, ease of feeding, and good breeding.
I'm not so sure there isn't a market for potty-trained snakes, but I'll let someone else conduct that experiment. <snicker>

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Yea, you can have hardiness, adaptbility, temperment, ease of feeding, and good breeding but stay away from tail-wagging and potty training - I call those.
:D

I'm looking forward to seeing you market them... lol

I want a bp that poops when i clap my hands.

If I ever come across one, I'll sell it to you.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Beyond that, you'll just have to take what I say at face value on its own merit.

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Actually when someone I don't know appears on the scene, making factual statements rather than presenting their thoughts, I don't take them on face value. I do like to know what research or better yet, hands on experience they have backing up a statement of fact they are putting forth.