Help! New BP Strikes Frequently

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Originally Posted by TheMadNucleus

As for Oscar's striking - I hope all of you are correct and that I will be able to get this under control - I have, as many suggested, left him alone for the last few days and will continue this for the full week. He is still snapping at the glass, all of his other functions are normal - active, eats well, has eliminated wastes, drinks water, etc. I have heard recently that some of them will never stop this striking behavior and if that is the case it will not be much fun keeping a pet like this for years to come - additionally, I think it will be prudent to notify those considering a BP as a pet, that even when secured from a reputable breeder, they can still have nasty dispositions which are not alterable.

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From the timeline I can determine from your posts you've had this snake about 10 or 11 days. Please understand what sort of pet you purchased. A snake, not a puppy or a kitten, and not a tamed animal. Whether captive bred or not, snakes are snakes. Even the best breeder in the world cannot guarantee temperment since reptiles with their reptilian brain are not bred for temperment nor has it ever been shown to have a genetic element for them.

Snakes are simply snakes and all snakes can strike. Most ball pythons are not big strikers but that cannot be taken to mean they won't. Expecting any snake to be settled in within this short time is unrealistic. Deciding that this is a situation that isn't "alterable" is giving up on your snake far too fast in my opinion. Might I ask how much personal experience you have in working with ball pythons that leads you to believe this snake is beyond hope of any change?

Robin, great quote. It just backs up the reasoning that UNDER heating is not natural, snakes BASK in the sun, not from a mystical underground heat source. Common sense says that the ventral scales are not going to be sensitive to heat like the dorsal scales. If you feel comfortable with the idea that the snake will move, thats your perogitive. I've read too many stories about people losing whole collections because the uth went berserk, and I'm still a newbie to this myself. It's always recommended to get a thermostat or rheostat because this does happen enough for us to be concerned about your set up.

We aren't trying to make things difficult for you, we are trying to avoid sickness and death from improper climate control.

TheMadNucleus,

Please understand that I'm not trying to provoke you or "rub your nose in it". That would serve no purpose whatsoever. However, when you quoted our caresheet, it brought to our attention that there were some things that needed tweaking. JLC has just finished updating the caresheet. Please take a look at it. The changes address some of the issues that we have discussed here.

I really do wish you the best with your bp, and hope that you understand that we really do want what's best for your snake!

Steve

Thanks for updating the Care sheet and I have taken a close look at it. And I hope you realize that I take all of these posts seriously and I have not given up on Oscar. Clearly I am hoping that the posts are correct and over time he will come around.

Oddly enough, as I do more research I find even more interesting things about this topic. Things that were not clear in much of the literature at hand in a variety of places. For example, some ball pythons never lose their aggressive behavior - when deeply entrenched in their behavior pattern they will not be tamed and will continue to snap for the rest of their lives. The issue that I have with this is that the majority of the literature does not make this clear enough. Some posters make this clear on this thread and others post just the opposite saying that in time everything will be fine. Secondly, I have discovered from reputable Vets and Herpetologists that the bottom line is that reptiles do not like to be handled, at best they tolerate it and exposing them to handling on a daily basis is not in their best interest - it only makes the owners happy. It is actually stressful for the animals even if tolerated.

What this means is that in your care sheets - if you are truly interested in the welfare of these animals - it should be made clear that they are really not excellent pets, are not really docile, do not care about being handled by humans - nor do they like it. They may have dispositions which are aggressive and if they 'tame' is it only an act of reluctant submission.

On one of the prior posts someone mentions that UTH are not naturally because BP's are do not receive heat from the ground - please re consider this statement - BP's are indigenous to Africa and portions of Africa where day-time temps hit the 100 or more degrees F. In these parts of Africa the air is thin and the sun's rays are intense. It is intuitive that the ground temperatures of these geographic locations easily hit 80-82 degrees F - the exact same range of the substrate in a cage-habitat with a zoo-med UTH (max wattage, on consistently) - I measured them accurately. The heat emanating from the ground is not mystical - it is quite natural in these temperate areas. In fact it would be quite unnatural for the ground temperature to be in the 70's while the air temp is in the high 80's. Furthermore at night - when the air temperature drops - the ground temperature remains high.

Another post asks me how experienced I am in keeping BP's - not very, however I have kept snakes before - a 6 foot Indigo for 3 years, a Red-tailed Boa for 6 years, a California king snake for 9 years and many others. The Boa was given away to a local pet shop when I left for college, the indigo as well, but because he was just too big and a bit fast.

One poster says that I am giving up too fast if I think his behavior is unalterable, but I never said that - I only said that it should be made clear that in some cases this is unalterable and the current day literature should reflect this.

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Originally Posted by TheMadNucleus

Secondly, I have discovered from reputable Vets and Herpetologists that the bottom line is that reptiles do not like to be handled, at best they tolerate it and exposing them to handling on a daily basis is not in their best interest - it only makes the owners happy. It is actually stressful for the animals even if tolerated...

What this means is that in your care sheets - if you are truly interested in the welfare of these animals - it should be made clear that they are really not excellent pets, are not really docile, do not care about being handled by humans - nor do they like it. They may have dispositions which are aggressive and if they 'tame' is it only an act of reluctant submission.

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These animals do not have a tendency towards aggression, so much that many respected and experienced keepers would never give them the "fiesty" attitude. They learn to tolerate our handling and the general consensus on this forum is that they do not enjoy anything, because they are unable to. I have not seen anyone say that these animals enjoy being handled, but they learn to tolerate and live with it. If you've read enough on here, we all strive to de-stress these animals as much as possible with good husbandry and habits.

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On one of the prior posts someone mentions that UTH are not naturally because BP's are do not receive heat from the ground - please re consider this statement - BP's are indigenous to Africa and portions of Africa where day-time temps hit the 100 or more degrees F. In these parts of Africa the air is thin and the sun's rays are intense. It is intuitive that the ground temperatures of these geographic locations easily hit 80-82 degrees F - the exact same range of the substrate in a cage-habitat with a zoo-med UTH (max wattage, on consistently) - I measured them accurately. The heat emanating from the ground is not mystical - it is quite natural in these temperate areas. In fact it would be quite unnatural for the ground temperature to be in the 70's while the air temp is in the high 80's. Furthermore at night - when the air temperature drops - the ground temperature remains high.

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Please reconsider your statement. The heat is still coming from the sun, an overhead source, rather than the ground producing it. Meaning the ambient is just as warm if not warmer than the ground. So the snake does not have to rely on belly heat. The ground does hold heat very well, but these snakes are also mostly nocturnal, and do not come out until dawn or dusk, when the ground is not nearly as warm as the ambient air temp. This explains why these animals dorsal scales would be more sensitive to heat than their ventral scales. Which is why they would not move when they were being burned. It's very easy to understand. We use UTH because they are more efficient and don't sap the humidity that these animals need. And when they are the main source of heat, it is best to keep it from getting out of hand and seriously burning your animal.

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Originally Posted by kurgan

BPs temperments vary wildly but most will calm down and handle well in time. With a new snake it is vital that you leave him well alone for at least to week to settle in. Most advise not to feed for a week to ten days then leave another week before handling him. Short handling at first eventually stretching it out, let him know that you are not a threat. If he is really bitey then some leather gloves may not be a bad idea at first.

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The very first response you got was telling you exactly their temperament. This is true, and another responder said that all animals bite, and BP's will too when stressed out. They generally will not bite out of aggression, but more out of defense. It may seem like aggression when you go to pick them up, but again, they are more scared of you. With regular handling these animals will settle to a degree, some more than others. I'm sorry you've never read this anywhere before you purchased this snake, but you also claimed to be "years experienced" so it should be known to you at this point.

I don't understand how there's been any misrepresentation of BP behavior here... If someone honestly came into the hobby thinking that their snake would geniunely enjoy being held and cuddled, I think they need their head checked. Consider this, as a consenus they are considered docile. Each case is different and their behavior as a species can be only be generalized to the majority. In time you will discover whether yours will calm with some handling or remain nippy. There never will be a point where it, or any snake, will be "tame". It is a creature of instinct and nothing at all like a puppy. Hopefully MOST people coming into the hobby understand and respect this of any reptile. So could it not be said, that for a reptile, a BP is a docile pet?

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Please reconsider your statement. The heat is still coming from the sun, an overhead source, rather than the ground producing it. Meaning the ambient is just as warm if not warmer than the ground. So the snake does not have to rely on belly heat. The ground does hold heat very well, but these snakes are also mostly nocturnal, and do not come out until dawn or dusk, when the ground is not nearly as warm as the ambient air temp. This explains why these animals dorsal scales would be more sensitive to heat than their ventral scales. Which is why they would not move when they were being burned. It's very easy to understand. We use UTH because they are more efficient and don't sap the humidity that these animals need. And when they are the main source of heat, it is best to keep it from getting out of hand and seriously burning your animal.

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This is a funny quote - copying my 'please reconsider your statement' thanks for the chuckle. None the less this quote defies logic and reason. First off - the heat is coming from 2 places - the sun and by virtue of the sun's stored energy in the ground, the ground as well. Besides, how it gets there is of little consequence to the discussion at hand. The BP doesn't care - all it knows is that both are warm. Additionally, any recommendation for using an UTH makes it clear that they should only be used as supplemental heating and that overhead heating must be used as well. Between the two heating sources you have the best representation of what occurs in the wild. As for being nocturnal - your statement is backwards - at night the ground temperature is higher than the ambient temperature - air cools faster then the earth.

As for your comment that the ambient temperature is as warm or wamrer then the ground - have you ever touched the hood of a black car that has been in the sun for awhile? It can be so hot as to cause a burn - clearly ground temperatures can greatly exceed ambient temperatures - and by huge margins - depends where. So this statement of yours has little or no merit.

It's very easy to understand: these animals do not make good pets - and anyone thinking differently is sadly mistaken - captivity for any of these animals is a stressful situation and if you truly care about them you would not support this 'hobby.' They deserve to be in the wild where they belong, not handled daily by a potential predator - or boxed in small tubs. I only say this because all your statements are so self righteous and clearly missing the fundamentals.

Something else that is very easy to understand, they do enjoy some things - that may be the motivation for them to move to a basking spot, seek food, and look for escape. It is naive to say they enjoy nothing - you have no clue. They may or they may not. Also you claim that everyone TRIES to de-stress these animals by good husbandry and habits, yet you clearly miss the point - I agree that you do, and I do this as well, however, if you keep them in enclosures and advocate handling them on a daily basis you are, by the very nature of these acts, increasing their stress. If you were truly interested in striving to minimize their stress you would not be keeping them as pets because clearly they are not suitable as pets or at the very least would not handle them - it only adds stress.

Unfortunately - the literature does not make this clear and now I have one, so I am in a similar boat as you. But we should not fool ourselves into thinking that we are egalitarian because we use good husbandry.

Do you have any documentation on the fact that their dorsal scales are more sensitive to heat than their ventral scales are? I'm very curious about this.

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Originally Posted by TheMadNucleus

This is a funny quote - copying my 'please reconsider your statement' thanks for the chuckle. None the less this quote defies logic and reason. First off - the heat is coming from 2 places - the sun and by virtue of the sun's stored energy in the ground, the ground as well. Besides, how it gets there is of little consequence to the discussion at hand. The BP doesn't care - all it knows is that both are warm. Additionally, any recommendation for using an UTH makes it clear that they should only be used as supplemental heating and that overhead heating must be used as well. Between the two heating sources you have the best representation of what occurs in the wild. As for being nocturnal - your statement is backwards - at night the ground temperature is higher than the ambient temperature - air cools faster then the earth.

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And how about for the morning?

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As for your comment that the ambient temperature is as warm or wamrer then the ground - have you ever touched the hood of a black car that has been in the sun for awhile? It can be so hot as to cause a burn - clearly ground temperatures can greatly exceed ambient temperatures - and by huge margins - depends where. So this statement of yours has little or no merit.

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Last I knew the African Savannah wasn't made of car hoods, rather dirt and rocks, with open grasslands. Poor comparison. But ambient temps are much closer to the ground temperature, making it easier for the animal to detect dangerous levels of heat. I have not studied the African land personally, or the BP in its natural environment, but I'm sure they do not come out in the middle of the day when the ground would burn them.

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It's very easy to understand: these animals do not make good pets - and anyone thinking differently is sadly mistaken - captivity for any of these animals is a stressful situation and if you truly care about them you would not support this 'hobby.' They deserve to be in the wild where they belong, not handled daily by a potential predator - or boxed in small tubs. I only say this because all your statements are so self righteous and clearly missing the fundamentals.

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Then what drove you to by one? Because it sounds like you clearly don't enjoy this animal.

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Something else that is very easy to understand, they do enjoy some things - that may be the motivation for them to move to a basking spot, seek food, and look for escape. It is naive to say they enjoy nothing - you have no clue. They may or they may not. Also you claim that everyone TRIES to de-stress these animals by good husbandry and habits, yet you clearly miss the point - I agree that you do, and I do this as well, however, if you keep them in enclosures and advocate handling them on a daily basis you are, by the very nature of these acts, increasing their stress. If you were truly interested in striving to minimize their stress you would not be keeping them as pets because clearly they are not suitable as pets or at the very least would not handle them - it only adds stress.

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Can you prove that a ball pythons lesser reptilian brain has the ability to enjoy and reason that it enjoys something?

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Unfortunately - the literature does not make this clear and now I have one, so I am in a similar boat as you. But we should not fool ourselves into thinking that we are egalitarian because we use good husbandry.

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Follow your own advice then and give it back so your not guilty of stressing out this animal like you say.

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Do you have any documentation on the fact that their dorsal scales are more sensitive to heat than their ventral scales are? I'm very curious about this.

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I believe that Kevin of NERD has written about it, it was even quoted in this thread. I'm sure that there are scientific articles out there, but I don't need proof to justify my precautions for belly burns. I will let you do the footwork instead of taking our advice.

Actually, that quote came from Pythons of the World: Vol II: Ball Pythons by Barker and Barker.

If you are truly looking for the most up to date literature on the care and husbandry of ball pythons, then I encourage you to pick it up.

From the back sleeve:

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Dave and Tracey Barker are graduate biologists with more than 65 years of combined experience with reptiles and amphibians. They both have expansive herpetological backgrounds, including work in zoo herpetological collections, museum collections, and field research. Herpetoculture is the main interest of this husban and wife team, and their cojmbined interests and experiences range fro dart poison frogs to ridgenose rattlesnakes. David and Tracey own and manage Vida Preciosa International, Inc., one of the largest and most successful collections of pythons in the world.

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Do you have any documentation on the fact that their dorsal scales are more sensitive to heat than their ventral scales are? I'm very curious about this.

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Since you missed it the first two times I posted it, I'll post it again:

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Pythons of the World Vol II: Ball Pythons by Barker & Barker, pp. 25-26:

As long as it is possible for the snake to move to a cooler area, we have never observed a ball python to allow itself to be burned on its dorsal surface from a radiant heat source that is too hot; however, over the years we have seen a number of ball pythons with severly burned ventral surfaces, caused by the snakes' voluntarily sitting too long on electrically warmed surfaces such as substrate heaters, under-cage-heating pads, or heated fake rocks. From this we deduce that ball pythons have less ability to detect and determine critical temperatures on their undersides than on their upper sides.

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