Spins and shakes in Spiders - Genetic Connection?

Hi,


Quick question.

I understand the refusal to breed from a spider that shows a noticeable problem with this but is there actally any evidence that they would produce offspring more likely to do it than those with a barely noticeable head tilt?

Don't misunderstand me I fully stand by the idea of only using the best breeding stock you can and attempting to eradicate any "undesirable traits" that show up. I just wondered if that hold true in this case or if the problem is like the amount of white in piebalds and low can throw high and high can throw low.


dr del

this topic has intrigued me for a cple o' years ! here's my thoughts on it ..... inbreeding ? cant see how given whats already known about spider gene ..ie breed to normals get more spiders/normals so can be out crossed to a great degree , using different normals with the new spiders. Expanding a gene pool not reducing it .

I am wondering if its actually more like say the eyesight in albinoism ...ie weaker sighted animal that normal. Let me explain , I once came across a friend that had a spider that would loop the loop. Twas like losing its balance to a degree , BUT when ever it was near natural light . it seemed fine . rited itself ok , and remained steady !

Got me thinking if there is not maybe some sort of photo reaction going on inside eyes ?

Of course I could be talking complete 'balls ' here ( pardon the pun ! ) just wanted to throw a thought into the discussion .

Either way its gonna take a lot of time for a lot of people to accept ( or maybe not ) that they do in fact spin/wobble/loop. Hidden genes ? gotta love em !

When I said:Rock on guys breed em till the bottom falls out. That was being totally sarcastic. I really am disappointed in some of the responces I got. Don't get me wrong I am glad people are willing to participate. It seemed to me like there was a lot of pushing it off to the side for how Great spiders are. I am not saying they are not a great morph but I called it a nurological disorder and I got told that was an asumption and for someone to correct them if they were wrong. Maybe I am wrong but it sounds like not to many other people know what there talking about either. I know there is plenty of work going on with spiders right? I think Dr Del has some good questions there. I guess I just don't like the some spin some wobble, and they all do, wait only some do, but they are a great morph so just like em and be happy. I am not trying to be a jerk, I was just hoping for information pertaining to this "disorder" and less opinion.


Chuck

"who" is to say what is a desirable trait and what is a defect? who determines what is right/wrong to breed?
some purists think all morphs are "wrong" abnormalities on nature...



vaughn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kavmon

"who" is to say what is a desirable trait and what is a defect? who determines what is right/wrong to breed?
some purists think all morphs are "wrong" abnormalities on nature...



vaughn

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I don't see how anyone could consider this a "desirable trait", but I do agree that no one should be able to tell others if it is right or wrong to breed them. I personally won't breed them, but I would never try to force my opinions on others. If only some of them did this I would probably breed them. For me, if there was at least a pretty good chance to get a normal one I would probably breed them. That is why I finally broke down and decided to get into caramels. Even though kinking is a problem it seems like most of them come out healthy and kink free.

To Ginevive: If you watch your snake at night under a red light and you know what to look for you will probably see that he is a little off. It sounds like you got lucky though and probably got one with a very minimal case because if you saw one with a bad cease there would be no missing it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pfan151

cease

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supposed to be *case*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chuck

I was just hoping for information pertaining to this "disorder" and less opinion.


Chuck

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I do not know exactly what kind of information you were looking for, but to the best of my knowledge, their has been no medicale research or studies done on these snakes to determine what is actually happening with them. There have been many good points brought up in this thread, but most of those thoughts are either questions, or opinions formed by people who have done plenty of observation, but have no actual diagnosis of what is going on. I personally have not seen any ill effects in any of my Spiders from their condition, and choose to breed them for their beautiful pattern.

This has been a very thought provoking thread, and I have enjoyed reading about everyone's thoughts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kavmon

"who" is to say what is a desirable trait and what is a defect? who determines what is right/wrong to breed?
vaughn

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:confused:
i kind of see your point. but for the most part. who determines what is right and wrong are all the other ball pythons that do not have this problem. we are not talking about all ball pythons here we are talking about breeding animals that cant hardly move. it would be like saying i breed dogs with two legs. they move relly funny but it is cute and in no way wrong to keep breeding them. you have to take into account quality of life of the animal. i dont care if it can eat/ sleep/ screw/ grow/ reproduce. it is still messed up and to say otherwise is putting the almighty dollor before these animals. wich are being brought in to the world by captive breeding. not wild breeding. in the wild a animal that had bad wobbles and could hardly move would be eaten by another animal quick. hince why there has only ever been one wc spider. the rest proabbly get eaten by preadtors as they are to busy being cute and wobbling to escape.

dont get me wrong i am not for not breeding spiders at all. i just believe that spiders that show any signs of wobbles should be kept as pets only and not breed :colbert:

but at the end of the day you are right it is a personal choice. if me/you anyone decides to breed 2 leged dogs that is a personal choice.

[QUOTE=MATT FISHER REPTILES]:confused:
i kind of see your point. but for the most part. who determines what is right and wrong are all the other ball pythons that do not have this problem. we are not talking about all ball pythons here we are talking about breeding animals that cant hardly move. "


imo, the "can't hardly move" is a little off base. my spiders slither just like the other balls. and in my case it isn't like spiders just sit there and stargaze or spin around 24/7. for the most part they do what most balls do. every now and then the head may tilt or they make shake a bit when in feeding mode. some of my normals shake around feeding time too.


some may look at hairless rats,cats, dogs the same way??

on ethics and morality, i think that can vary greatly. who is really right and why??

ie some people may have diabetes or heart conditions that are genetic. who has the right to say they shouldn't have kids? many people are born with what society would call
"not desirable traits" but they lead full and productive lives. they may look ,talk,walk different or they may not.

imo, no being or animal has more rights than the other. unless i'm hungry:D .

i know there is a big difference between snakes and humans. i think some of the ethics/morals could apply to both though.


vaughn

I am curious if the original imported spider had these shakes or not. I think that would narrow down whether this is a result of intensive inbreeding or if it is a deficiency that has always been part of the spider trait.

JonV