the snake/human relationship

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Originally Posted by jotay

My Ozzy could care less who holds him same w/ my albino Edgar
Now my lemon Corona he will hiss like crazy when others try to hold him but those others have been folks who weren't 100% at ease in holding him.
If someone who was at ease tried to hold him I am sure he would be chill.
They may have a slight sense to them, who knows. I know most of the mammal world reacts to a persons fear. Don't know how true that would be with repitles.

That old brain is pretty small so not much room to process a whole heck of a lot.
I think we as owners would like to think they know us and like us :)

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Yea, I don't disagree that pet owners are going to tend to do that.

I've seen cats show some form of every emotion, complex personalities, and reasoning behavior. Conventional wisdom says animals are all dumb and only people can reason and are "sentient". I strongly doubt that. I think we're loads smarter than they are but that's all there is to it. And, I agree that cats are far smarter than snakes. But there's a lesson there for me that says "Don't underestimate any animal. If you open your mind to them you just might find there's more there than you realized." But then again, lots of people thing I'm a bit weird :rolleye2:

Just my :2cent:

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Originally Posted by Sausage

Not trying to be a smartass, but some snakes only have one lung. ;)

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I knew that was coming :). There are differences but they are mostly variations of the same base pattern.

The last snake anatomy chart I looked at listed left and right lungs where one was dominant and did all the work and the other was tiny with some minor function.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I knew that was coming :). There are differences but they are mostly variations of the same base pattern.

The last snake anatomy chart I looked at listed left and right lungs where one was dominant and did all the work and the other was tiny with some minor function.

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I think you're trying to reach a little far in the comparison of physical anatomy and its relation to cognitive thinking abilities. Just because we share physical similarities does not make us cognitively equivalent. Just don't see how the two are relevent.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Yea, I don't disagree that pet owners are going to tend to do that.

I've seen cats show some form of every emotion, complex personalities, and reasoning behavior. Conventional wisdom says animals are all dumb and only people can reason and are "sentient". I strongly doubt that. I think we're loads smarter than they are but that's all there is to it. And, I agree that cats are far smarter than snakes. But there's a lesson there for me that says "Don't underestimate any animal. If you open your mind to them you just might find there's more there than you realized." But then again, lots of people thing I'm a bit weird :rolleye2:

Just my :2cent:

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Cats are mammals so I don't see how that's relevant. I relate to mammals on a much different level than I do snakes, and I would agree with that -- I have experienced a "connection" to dogs and horses.

You keep coming to this 'people think animals are dumb' argument, but I honestly don't understand how you've extracted that from the comments people have made. I think humans are dumb if we think that the way our central nervous systems and psychologies work are the best system in the animal kingdom. Many species have come before us and may will outlive us.

And I don't think you're weird. I think you're a critical thinker, which is a good thing. But I also think it's ok to take some information for what it is and not try to pull more and more meaning from it.

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Originally Posted by darkangel

Cats are mammals so I don't see how that's relevant. I relate to mammals on a much different level than I do snakes, and I would agree with that -- I have experienced a "connection" to dogs and horses.

You keep coming to this 'people think animals are dumb' argument, but I honestly don't understand how you've extracted that from the comments people have made. I think humans are dumb if we think that the way our central nervous systems and psychologies work are the best system in the animal kingdom. Many species have come before us and may will outlive us.

And I don't think you're weird. I think you're a critical thinker, which is a good thing. But I also think it's ok to take some information for what it is and not try to pull more and more meaning from it.

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Great post! They were talking about the same thing recently on the Ramone and Frunkis morning show (local talk radio). A great topic for sure...

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Great post! They were talking about the same thing recently on the Ramone and Frunkis morning show (local talk radio). A great topic for sure...

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I must have missed that. Was it on Rock Scream Tuesday? :P :D

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Originally Posted by darkangel

I must have missed that. Was it on Rock Scream Tuesday? :P :D

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Nope, Cat noise Wednesday...Meow!

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Originally Posted by darkangel

Cats are mammals so I don't see how that's relevant. I relate to mammals on a much different level than I do snakes, and I would agree with that -- I have experienced a "connection" to dogs and horses.

You keep coming to this 'people think animals are dumb' argument, but I honestly don't understand how you've extracted that from the comments people have made. I think humans are dumb if we think that the way our central nervous systems and psychologies work are the best system in the animal kingdom. Many species have come before us and may will outlive us.

And I don't think you're weird. I think you're a critical thinker, which is a good thing. But I also think it's ok to take some information for what it is and not try to pull more and more meaning from it.

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I've been too busy to post much lately so who knows if anyone will read this. But, since its pretty much my favorite snakey subject, I can't resist....

I said that "conventional" wisdom (some of which is religiously based) tells us that people are special and that animals are ..well... just animals. I'm not referring to anybody here. I'm referring to the fact that the last several decades have provided alot of scientific evidence to show that animals are indeed capable of complex behaviors previously thought to be solely the domain of humanity.

I'll summarize my argument:

1) Between two species that are very different, there are similar behaviors. Humans are vastly superior to cats yet cats can demonstrate complex behaviors that are very similar to human behaviors. I don't think anybody with alot of cat experience could be sold on the "anthropomorphism" argument. When cat looks likes it is embarrased and angry after being laughed at for botching a jump, it is really what it looks like:embarrassed and angry. It may not be exactly like human embarrasment but its still embarrassment. Its not your imagination.

2) Vast numbers of species on this planet use the same base anatomy. Cats have four legs - but those two front legs are smaller so they are kind of like arms arent they? They have two eyes, two ears, lungs, kidneys, a heart, stomach, small intestine, large intenstine, and so on. A cat's leg is 8 inches long, weighs a few ounces. A humans leg is a few feet long and weighs 10's of pounds. Plus, they have different relative bone lengths and overall shape. Nevertheless, they have the same number of major joints and digits. For example, a cat has four claws and a weird dew-claw on the side and a human has four fingers and a thumb on the side - kind of the same thing isn't it? Furthermore, both types of legs are used for locomotion, defense, etc.

3) If animals share this underlying pattern where all of their anatomies are derivations of a common shared pattern then it follows that animal's brains are also related both in their function and in their operation. I'll return to the comparison of cat and human legs: By some measurements (length, weight, strength) these features are radically different yet they share the same basic form and function. That's why they are both called "legs". Also, humans have brains and cats have brains and everybody readily agrees that they both have the same basic purpose. So, why do we suddenly assume that what goes on inside of those brains is completely different and can't be compared? It seems much more likely that, like the legs, the pattern is the same and its only the scale that changes. IMO, you can imagine what its like to be an animal like this: imagine how dumb you were on the morning of your worst-ever hangover and then imagine having 1/10 that thinking ability. Its kind of a crude way to imagine it but my point is that animals don't have totally different thinking patterns, they just have much simpler versions of the same patterns that we do.
4) The argument holds just as well for cats as it does for snakes. Snakes are simply less sophisticated.

Cats get embarassed when they botch an attempt at a jump? Where do you get your facts from?

i don't know if cats get embarassed. but my dog...she'll mess up on a jump, hit her shoulder, and she seems to have this 'embarassed' look to her. maybe i'm just imagining it but she just has this look to her.