teaching bps

So sure, there's a balance and its good to understand it. I just disagree with somebody telling somebody else that their snake doesn't "enjoy" their company. I think that the anthropomorphism argument is not applied rigorously or the basis of other regularly used terms such as "stressed" and "tolerates" would be brought into question as well. Nor do I fully agree with it. And, I think that in the very noble pursuit of making sure the snakes are well cared for, the whole pet aspect is overlooked.

So that's all. most of the later posts were much more realistic but some of the earlier ones were a bit off base, IMO. In my mind somebody was being treated somewhat poorly and I defended them. Did I try to destroy somebody's reputation on this board because of it? No. Even better, I did not give sombody a negative rep point based on the fact that I misunderstood what they meant and thought it might reflect poorly on somebody else (Who I'm guessing was fully capable of taking it up with me themself).

snakes can LEARN what is going to happen in certain situations, and pretty quick. My male who is only 8 months old is proof of this. Every time I feed him, I first take him out and handle him a little bit, put him on the scale, get his weight prior to feeding, then I put him back in his tank, he goes in his hide, then I drop the mouse in. I have been doing that for every feeding for the past too months and have noticed something interesting about him. when I take him out, handle him, he goes in his tank, goes completely in his hide, then right back out looking for the prey item. He has learned that after being handled it means its time to eat. I took him out again today to clean a mess he left me, and when I put him back in he went back in his hide and then right back out again looking for the prey. So they can learn and remember that if this happens, this happens, then I am going to get food. I actually feel bad when I dont have a mouse to offer him.

So saying snakes are dumb or lack intelligence is a bit harsh, but I do agree teaching him to come to you would be really tough and I would be more afraid of him biting me thinking I'm prey, but I wouldn't say it can't be done....have you all forgotten the guy that TRAINED GOLDFISH? who are said to be the dumbest of all animals and has a memory of about 5 sec?

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I don't know, it just seems that for a group of people so in love with a particular animal, there are alot of posts that really minimize what its capable of instead of the other way around. Aside from making sure they are being well taken care of, shouldn't we be here to celebrate the ball-python?

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First of all there are many people here with more than enough experience with this animal that they can and have said that training Ball python and emotion are out side its ability's as an animal. We are not minimizing what it is capable of we just know what its capable of and except that. I mean people aren't disappointed when their dog can't play the trumpet are they or that Apes can't be taught to play the violin these are simply outside their ability's as an animal. People do fall in love with their pets and just like children do have high expectations of them. However just like children we must except them for their ability's and love them for what they are.

Please understand that ever how attentive and curious and loving they may seem at the end of the day when all the lights are out and all the poop is cleaned. IT'S A SNAKE nothing more. Except that and what it is capable of and enjoy the beautiful creature for what it is a snake.

People (including me) that have had these wonderful animals for years and have had more than one have said they can't be trained. It's not a shot at the person trying to or wondering if they can. Its the answer to their question.

As is so often the case, statements can get misunderstood and details lost. This one is getting stale but I think I'll just reply to Freakie frog here.

I agree (and always have) that the training is a longshot and probably best not attempted lest the snake just seems to beg for it somehow. I was more offended by the other, more qualitative, comments. Or, to be more specific, I felt like somebody whom I believed to be a new member was unnecessarily having their parade rained on.

As a cat lover, I love to hear the occasional story of the cat that could use the toilet even though I'm lucky to get consistent litter box action. And, as a snake lover, I suppose I'll always be the same way: eager to hear about the guy who has a BP that comes to him when he taps him, even though I'm lucky if mine is nice enough to hang in my hand for a while without trying to get away.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I don't know where you are getting your medical information, but the "reptilian brain" is the term that refers to the area of our brains that include the Cerebellum, Medula, Midbrain, Pons, and Brain Stem. This is the area of the brain which controls involuntary body processes and reaction to stimulus.

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Your right to a certain extent. Be careful here.

These are the functions of the "human reptilian brain" sometimes called the R-complex. In comparative neuroscience, gross structural homology doesn't always imply functional homology. For example, the reptilian medial cortex is functionally equivalent to the mammalian hippocampus, so much so that it is often called the "reptilian hippocampus" even though reptiles lack a true limbic system.

"Ancient"/"Older"/"Primitive"/"Earilier Evolved" structures have often adopted new derived functions in modern reptiles. The "reptilian hippocampus" like the mammalian hipposcampus seems to be involved in spatial learning and memory storage.

Here's a quote to consider from a classic neuroscience text:

"Recent developments in comparative anatomy suggest that it is no longer reasonable to expect strict homologies between brain structures in animals occupying different branches of the phylogenetic tree. There is considerable evolution within each phylum, so that one can find sophisticated neural organizations as well as primitive ones in that phylum. For example, in addition to the well-described sharks with simple brains one can find sharks with well-developed and highly differentiated forebrains."

This thread seems to be a bit of a war between balancing anthropomorphism and anthropocentrism. When we ascribe human choices and higher order feelings to animals we are being anthropomorphic, when we underestimate the power of animal intelligence and abilities and think we are the most advanced or evolved or complex of all creatures then we are being anthropocentric. It easy to confuse these two similar sounding but very different meaning words. In fact, I made this very mistake very recently on this board myself.....

I think it important to carefully balance these two. We should be careful to ascribe human attributes to other creatures but we should also be careful to assume we are the only ones that can learn or do certain things. We should be careful to avoid underestimating animals' cognitive and emotional states and careful to assume we are so unique. The Jane Goodall Institute has shown that chimps have some propensity in creating their own melodies for example. Chimps have also been shown to have different cultures.

This study reported sometime ago on ScienceDaily seems particularly relevant to the discussion as far as reptiles go.

"Studies dating back to the 1950s interpreted snakes' clumsiness with mazes as a poor reflection on their intelligence. Holtzman's peers regard his work as groundbreaking because unlike a maze, his arena confronts snakes with a situation that they're likely to encounter in the natural world.

"Early attempts to study snake navigation were awry because the studies used mazes as testing arenas -- as though snakes might be expected to run through mazes in the same way rats run through mazes," Peter Kareiva, a professor of zoology at the University of Washington, wrote last summer in Integrative Biology, of which he is editor-in-chief. "Of course, snakes do not encounter anything resembling mazes in nature, and they do not learn how to run mazes in laboratory conditions.

"The bottom line is that when tested in a biologically meaningful way, snakes exhibit spatial learning that rivals the learning abilities of birds and rodents," he concluded, "but the cues used by snakes [need] to match their ecology."

Apparently Snakes do have the ability to learn spatially.

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Originally Posted by sw204me

snakes can LEARN what is going to happen in certain situations, and pretty quick. My male who is only 8 months old is proof of this. Every time I feed him, I first take him out and handle him a little bit, put him on the scale, get his weight prior to feeding, then I put him back in his tank, he goes in his hide, then I drop the mouse in. I have been doing that for every feeding for the past too months and have noticed something interesting about him. when I take him out, handle him, he goes in his tank, goes completely in his hide, then right back out looking for the prey item. He has learned that after being handled it means its time to eat. I took him out again today to clean a mess he left me, and when I put him back in he went back in his hide and then right back out again looking for the prey. So they can learn and remember that if this happens, this happens, then I am going to get food. I actually feel bad when I dont have a mouse to offer him.

So saying snakes are dumb or lack intelligence is a bit harsh, but I do agree teaching him to come to you would be really tough and I would be more afraid of him biting me thinking I'm prey, but I wouldn't say it can't be done....have you all forgotten the guy that TRAINED GOLDFISH? who are said to be the dumbest of all animals and has a memory of about 5 sec?

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i agree here. when i remove all the things in my snake's cage for feeding, her behavior changes dramatically. she begins to look for a rat, and then snatches it usually in 5 seconds or less. she is aware that feeding time means that everything is missing. when everything is back in the tank, she knows that there will be no more food and that there is no need to hunt anymore.

i don't know about "training" so much as maybe learned habit(s). i find when i try to take pictures of my snake, it's very hard because she always goes right towards the camera. but whenever i have her out otherwise, she just goes where she wants (under supervision obviously). i'd say training a snake is a little far fetched, but i'd definately agree with them learning and catching on to certain situations quickly.

My ball pythons are potty trained. They go in their tubs each and everytime! I trained them well ;) No more puppy piddle pads for them! They've graduated!

Yes.. I'm silly..

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mendel's Balls again.

:colbert2:

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

My ball pythons are potty trained. They go in their tubs each and everytime! I trained them well ;) No more puppy piddle pads for them! They've graduated!

Yes.. I'm silly..

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LOL. Yep, I've trained many of my snakes to hide and ball up on command. I'm especially proud of the ones I've trained to 'attack!', although they only seem to attack my hand.

Of course I've trained all of them to 'lay down'. :P

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Originally Posted by xdeus

LOL. Yep, I've trained many of my snakes to hide and ball up on command. I'm especially proud of the ones I've trained to 'attack!', although they only seem to attack my hand.

Of course I've trained all of them to 'lay down'. :P

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LOL Mine are trained to keep the wife out of the office. :D

I think the info Mendel gave is great and the more we can understand about these animals the better we can provide for them.