Meet Loopy! ***DUW****

After seeing your video I'm am 100% certain Loopy is a normal spinner.

Heres Adams description of spinners per his BLOG



When I purchased my first spider many years ago, I had heard and was told about “spinning” in spider ball pythons. The way it was described, I understood “spinning” to be a condition where the animal continually loops their head and neck in a “corkscrew” motion and barely has the ability to sit still. I looked over my spider and there was no “cork screwing” so in my mind, he wasn’t a “spinner”.

Over the years that followed as I raised my spider, I heard a lot of big breeders making statements like “all spiders spin” or “all spiders are tweaked” and I really got pissed off. How could they be saying stuff like that? All they were doing was hurting any chance I ever had at selling spiders. Surely I would produce spiders that didn’t spin and if they were telling people that every single one was “tweaked”, I’d be cooked!

Then, I started producing my own spiders. Within my first couple of clutches I noticed a couple that “weren’t right”, but no big deal, I just wouldn’t sell those. Then I started looking harder. I noticed different degrees of odd behavior in all of the spiders that I produced. Some shook their head from side to side, some spun like tops, and others did the corkscrew thing as they were cruising their cage at night, still others were less noticeable but it was there. The less noticeable ones didn’t wobble or corkscrew, but they held their head at an angle when you looked at them. Kind of like the way a dog looks when it hears something it doesn’t understand. So then I started looking at spiders. Spiders in my friends collections, spiders at shows, spiders in pictures posted on the internet. All of them do it do some degree, all of them.

I’ve read the internet rumors that it has something to do with the amount of white, or the head pattern, or the connecting or non-connecting neck stripe on the animals neck … bologna! It doesn’t matter, they all do it. I’ve also heard that spider siblings do it. After producing tons of spider clutches, I don’t find that to be an accurate statement. I do believe that breeders have seen “spinning” in spider siblings, but I don’t think that it is any more common in the normal looking siblings of spiders than it is in any other normal looking ball python. Over the years (and before I ever heard of spinning in spiders) I have produced a heterozygous albino and a normal looking pastel sibling that spin the exact same way that spiders do. I feel that it is a condition that can effect all ball pythons but for whatever reason is common in spiders. I’ve also heard that the reason spiders spin is because they were so inbred early on in the project … ridiculous. The recessive mutations out there have been inbred/line bred by an order of magnitude more than spiders. The notion that a co-dominant/dominant mutation can be inbred more than a recessive is an ill informed one.

I finally understood what the big breeders were saying. It’s not always as in your face as people expect it to be, but it’s there in each and every spider. You just have to know what to look for. Now I know a lot of people are going to read this and say “no, not my spider”. I’m telling you, your spider does it too. You just have to know what to look for. I’m not sure what the answer is, but I know one thing for sure … spin or not, I LOVE SPIDERS! I love their natural variation, I love the combos that they make, I love everything about them. I will always breed and produce spiders. I will do my best to keep my customers informed about them as much as I am and leave the decision to them. If I have to end up keeping every spider and spider I produce … well, that’s fine with me! :-)

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Allison just a few thoughts and this is just gut reaction stuff since I'm no vet. First off I'd send that video to a couple of good herp vets for consultation when you can do so, just to get some medical input.

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That's a good idea! I'll look into doing that soon.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Next, it almost seems that Loopy uses his body and his environment to help control his spasms. I watched closely and he straightens out against the side of that dish and his own body. At some points he's moving very naturally. If it was me I'd put him in a long, skinny sort of enclosure where he can use the sides of the enclosure, hides, even cage "furniture" and a heavy water dish to orient himself. I'd avoid any deep sort of water dish as I'd be concerned he could flop in there and drown.

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He does do that with his body and is pretty good with that. What kind of long/skinny enclosure were you thinking about? I'm trying to picture something, but I'm not picturing it. As for a water dish his water is kept very shallow because like you said he could flop on there and be in trouble.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

He seems to move almost normally then get excited and start quivering and then spinning. Could this possibly be something triggered in his brain from stimulation? In that case maybe a darker environment might negate some of those effects on him (darker plastic tub, low light room sort of thing).

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He will be "fine" and then act like he is unsure of what is going on or just unsure of himself and kind of "freaks" and that is when he starts to spin and loose it. He'll try to help himself out and try to stop himself from looping around but after doing it, he just seems upset. During the day is is fine while he is just sitting there / sleeping. During the night I've noticed him trying to explore and having mini looping fits, but nothing at all as bad as in the video. Mostly just going backwards with his head and going down sideways.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Is his ability to move and/or right himself helped or hindered by different sorts of substrates (I'm thinking smooth and slippery here verus a substrate with some traction to it). Newpaper can have almost a "slide" to it, so maybe indented Kraft paper or even reptile carpet might actually help him with better traction. I'd probably avoid loose substrate as if he got his head stuck and buried he'd be in big trouble I would think.

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He's always been on Aspen, but stuck in a very small tub so he couldn't move around a lot. I do see what you are saying and I'm very glad you brought that up because now I'm curious to see if something different could help him out. I'm not sure if slippery would be better since I know he tries to "dig" himself in to the bedding when he is trying to get himself back under control. I know up at the shop, I had him on the floor and he was trying to get away and freaked out. He couldn't really get anywhere, nor could he get himself under control. I see what you are saying if he were to get his head stuck under the the loose bedding. I'll have to try out that reptile carpet and see how he does with that.


[QUOTE=frankykeno] Lastly I know snakes do not have a diaphragm so their ribs must move for their lungs to work. If Loopy is flipped over but his ribs can still move he should in theory be able to continue to breathe normally. What does he do when he's flipped over? Can he ever right himself? If he's over and beside say a tub wall, can he utilize that surface to get himself righted?[/qoute]

When he is flipped over, he doesn't do to much moving. He may move his tail and lower body around a bit, but never really tries to flip back over. I'm not sure if this is because he can't get himself back over from what I've seen or if he just waits for someone to flip him back over since I've never seen him flip over on his back on his own. I'm going to have to "set him up" upside down in his tub and see what he does. While he was at Pete's I messed with him but I didn't really test him to see what he really could and could not do because I didn't want to get in trouble since he wasn't mine. I'll see more on what he can and con't do and get back on this topic.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

I'd observe him closely, take videos so you can review them and see what triggers this and what he does to help himself out of a spin. Then you can design his life and home around minimizing the incidents as much as possible and helping him deal with them (much as humans do with epilepsy, parkinsons, etc.)

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Yes I do plan on doing that. May take some time but I'd like to be able to get him set up with something that can help him out better in the long run.

wow great for you taking in the snake good ideas hun tis good to see people willing to help animals with disablities I know in severus case you can barely regonize his anymore they weren't as serious as your little ones but the tail kink and jaw misallingment have for the most part disappeard.

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Loopy is the dude. He seems like such a sweet little guy and has learned to cope w/ the cards he was dealt.
You are an angel for taking him in and giving him a life :)
I know some will think I am crazy but Loopy knows your his angel :)

As for talking w/ vets I am sure you know about Dr.Stahl. He would be one of the first vets I check with. He is an awesome guy and one of the tops in his field.

Allison your a wonderful person :worship:

Jo,
Thanks. Yes, I know Scott Stahl and he was my first thought in who to send video's & questions to regarding Loopy.

He looks like he has constant motion sickness. Poor guy.

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Originally Posted by lillyorchid

What kind of long/skinny enclosure were you thinking about? I'm trying to picture something, but I'm not picturing it.

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I can't find a link online hon but I remember seeing a long, sort of skinny storage box, I think in a craft store. The sort you'd store things like long tubes of wrapping paper/craft supplies in. I'll try to find a picture of what I'm thinking of but basically more long and skinny than wide and boxy, so Loopy would never be that far from a "wall" to brace against if he can utilize that to help control his body.

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He's always been on Aspen, but stuck in a very small tub so he couldn't move around a lot. I do see what you are saying and I'm very glad you brought that up because now I'm curious to see if something different could help him out. I'm not sure if slippery would be better since I know he tries to "dig" himself in to the bedding when he is trying to get himself back under control. I know up at the shop, I had him on the floor and he was trying to get away and freaked out. He couldn't really get anywhere, nor could he get himself under control. I see what you are saying if he were to get his head stuck under the the loose bedding. I'll have to try out that reptile carpet and see how he does with that.

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Well normally I'm not a big fan of reptile carpet but I'm just thinking that might help him with traction while negating risks with loose bedding. Might be worth a try.

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When he is flipped over, he doesn't do to much moving. He may move his tail and lower body around a bit, but never really tries to flip back over. I'm not sure if this is because he can't get himself back over from what I've seen or if he just waits for someone to flip him back over since I've never seen him flip over on his back on his own. I'm going to have to "set him up" upside down in his tub and see what he does. While he was at Pete's I messed with him but I didn't really test him to see what he really could and could not do because I didn't want to get in trouble since he wasn't mine. I'll see more on what he can and con't do and get back on this topic.

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I'd definitely slowly and carefully test what he can do for himself and if things in his environment can help him give the leverage to get back in a normal belly down position. If it's possible for him to do this, I would think eventually he'd "learn" to do so and also develop the muscle responses needed. Most creatures learn to deal with disability to an extent that's pretty amazing. Once you figure out a bit of what might trigger his episodes and what helps him most you can tailor his daily life around this information so he's not presented with any new that might freak him out.

Definitely use videos to help you analyze what's going on. Amazing what you'll pick up by reviewing them and seeing the small details of what's going on with Loopy and his world. I'm so happy he's with someone that is this interested in his quality of life....good for you Allison!