Lesser/Butter

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

You know that we will get it worked out Chris don't worry. I am so excited that I have 5 clutches already and a special one is laying today! Alice that is a very nice Caramel you have there. It seems your collection is growing by leaps and bounds!


Brock Wagner
Brockwagnerreptiles.com:cool:

---

Thanks Brock! It's very hard to stop at just one, or two, or ten. . . . well you know what I mean.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkS

OK, you're wrong. :D

From what I remember. Ralph imported the original platinum. He bred this male to some normal females and produced a fairly even split of normal looking babies and babies that were different looking. These different looking babies were similar to the original platinum but weren't as nice (I think the term he used was 'they weren't even in the same zipcode') These different babies he termed 'Lesser platinums'. Fortunatly he also kept all the 'normal' looking babies as well. When he bred the normal babies together, he produced nothing but more normal looking babies... HOWEVER, when he bred the original male platinum to some of his normal looking daughters he produced some more real platinums (ie: not lessers) So there is apparently a hidden gene in the platty daddy (the original male platinum) That doesn't show up in a first generation breeding. I believe that he has also produced platinums by breeding lessers to these normal looking siblings. I believe that Ralph now has a number of real platinums but I don't know if he's ever sold any.

The butters are very similar looking to the lessers and originate from another wild caught animal imported by another breeder. (whose name eludes me right now) Other people also have imported similar looking animals, I beleive that Sean at EBN imported a snake a few years back that he calls an 'African Lesser'. Interestingly Ralph bred a butter to one of his normal siblings and produced the butter version of a real platinum. So, it appears that the key to producing a real platinum is the normal looking offspring from the original platty daddy.

At least thats how I remember it.

Mark

---

Hate to bring up an old thread, but I'm confused.
A platinum to normal makes lessers and normals. Are mojaves, butters and lessers compatible? Could there be a Super platinum? I'm lost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by erobinson

Hate to bring up an old thread, but I'm confused.
A platinum to normal makes lessers and normals. Are mojaves, butters and lessers compatible? Could there be a Super platinum? I'm lost.

---

It is confusing, because there are some interesting genetics at work.

First, I'm not sure if anyone has crossed butters and lessers. However, RDR did take one of his Lesser siblings and breed it to a Butter and bred out a "Butter Daddy". That to me says Butters and Lessers are not only compatible, but the same genes are at work (similar to an Enchi, Lemon and Graziani Pastel... I look very different, but all the same genes).

Here's a Butter Daddy: http://www.glassreptiles.com/daytona...r%20Daddy.html

And the Platty Daddy:
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/ma...s/platinum.asp

There's a "Daddy" gene involved here that changes the color pattern of the normal Butter and Lesser. The only two animals that this has ever been reproduced on are Butters and Plattys. That suggests that this gene is only compatible with the Butter/Platinum lines, which in turn, suggests these are two of the same animals (with different bloodlines).

The "Super Lesser" is just about the whitest BEL you'll ever see. The Butter also makes BELs, and I have no idea how white they are. I don't imagine you'd be able to see the difference between a "Super Platinum" and a "Super Lesser", since they would all produce BEL's.

Mojave's I'm not so sure about. The BEL's they produce aren't as pretty, and the animals themselves aren't nearly as pretty as Butters or Lessers (IMHO). So we won't know that until someone breeds a Mojave to Lesser, or better yet, a Mojave to Lesser Sibling and see if we can produce Mojave Daddy's :D.

The platinum morph sounds like it might be a good morph to invest in, normals(that aren't normal), lessers, platinums and BEL's. But it sounds like it could be more inbreeding in this line than I would desire in a morph.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by erobinson

The platinum morph sounds like it might be a good morph to invest in, normals(that aren't normal), lessers, platinums and BEL's. But it sounds like it could be more inbreeding in this line than I would desire in a morph.

---

Well, there's a ton of inbreeding in every line. The overwhelming majority of morphs came from a single WC sire or dame. However, Plattys are a tricky investment, since Ralph is keeping a pretty solid hold on them (do you blame him? :)). If I recall, he's only put one Platty up for sale and I'm going to guess it'll cost a small fortune.

Personally, I like the "look" of Butters better than Platinums. But I would certainly want my hands on a WT Lesser sibling to make a Butter Daddy :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jhall1468

Personally, I like the "look" of Butters better than Platinums. But I would certainly want my hands on a WT Lesser sibling to make a Butter Daddy :D

---

I'm with you on that. I prefer butters to the lessers, especially the pastel butters. I'll also invest in mojaves as well. I just like the purple head of the super mojave leucistic.

Someone should suggest to Ralph to breed a first generation "normal" (from the Platty Daddy) to a Mojave and see what happens...

So it has been proven though that Butters produce BELs?

The theory that seems to me to agree best with the public data so far is that the daddy gene (I like "dilute" better) is another allele of the same group as lesser, butter, mojave, Vin Russo, phantom, and probably whatever makes a mojave into a crystal. In this theory these are all different versions of the same gene. If this is the case the important result of these beeing alleles would be that one snake could have at most 2 of all of the different types of this gene, including the normal version.

In this theory a karma (white snake from lesser X phantom) when bred to a normal can only produce 50/50 lessers and phantoms but no normals and no karmas. If the daddy/dilute gene is yet another allele then the platy is a combo just like karma and platy X normal would produce 50% lesser and 50% with the dilute gene. The difference being that the dilute gene by it's self either produces normal or very near normal looking animals and apperently even a homozygous dilute doesn't stand out.

This would fit with the daddy butter being produced by a normal looking discendent of platy daddy X butter without any inbreeding. I believe RDR has kept very tight hold of the dilute gene so it might be a while before we get to see if it has a simulare effect in a mojave. I believe that RDR's 2005 clutch 44 shows the dilute gene in a phantom (the 44's).

To fill in some of the expected results using this theory:

Platinum X Platinum = 1/4 Leucistic (not carrying the dilute gene as no room for a 3rd version of the same gene), 1/2 Platinum, 1/4 normal looking homozygous dilute. The nice thing about a clutch like this is that you would know for sure (if the theory is right) about the homozygous dilute and if you bred it to the leucistic you would bet 100% Platinum.

Platinum X Butter = 1/4 Leucistic, 1/4 daddy butter, 1/4 lesser, 1/4 normal looking heterozygous dilute

Quote:

---

The theory that seems to me to agree best with the public data so far is that the daddy gene (I like "dilute" better) is another allele of the same group as lesser, butter, mojave, Vin Russo, phantom, and probably whatever makes a mojave into a crystal.

---

That doesn't make much sense to me. A codominant allele that presents no differences between a wild-type in visual appearance? I'm not sure what is going on with the "Daddy" gene, but I think it is WAY to early to be making predictions on what it is, let alone what it's compatible with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NextWorldExotics

Lesser x Normal Sibling = Platinum
Lesser x Lesser = Blue Eyed Lucy
Lesser x Platinum = Blue Eye lucy, Platinum (i think, not sure?), Lesser
Lesser x Butter = Blue eye lucy
Platinum x Platinum = ??? (hasn't been done as far as i know)
Platinum x Butter = ??? (hasn't been done as far as i know)
Butter x Butter = Blue eye lucy

---

Lesser x Lesser = blue eyed lucy? is that all, or will you also get other lessers.

Also what do you get when you breed a Lesser x Normal (non sibling) ?