Ethics of Hybrids

IMHO

i believe that as long as you are producing animals which aren't born (or will develop) health issues or physical disabilties (this is not including the ability to make offspring) then its OK.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

For those of you who answer "Yes-For Another reason"....feel free to post that reason if you desire.

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i think designer hybridization can make some really fantastic looking animals.
but... i really believe that keeping some subspecies separate is really important. the main scenario for this is with australian pythons (morelia especially). we can't import these animals anymore and the more we intergrade subspecies the more useless i think they are in herpetoculture.

just my opinion... don't mean to offend anyone that produces those crazy 86.88% diamond/5.32434535% jungle/7.9453454% jaguar carpets.

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Originally Posted by kzooherpetoculturist

i think designer hybridization can make some really fantastic looking animals.
but... i really believe that keeping some subspecies separate is really important. the main scenario for this is with australian pythons (morelia especially). we can't import these animals anymore and the more we intergrade subspecies the more useless i think they are in herpetoculture.

just my opinion... don't mean to offend anyone that produces those crazy 86.88% diamond/5.32434535% jungle/7.9453454% jaguar carpets.

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Just wondering...why cant we import them? Endangered status?

i dunno.. any australians here? lots of countries have laws like that, australia just came to mind.

There are lots of Austrailian laws that prevent the exportation and importation of animals....most stem from declining natural populations and invasive species problems (freakin rabbits and toads)....that is why you will never see WC austrailian animals around....and if you do, they are probably here illegally.

Here is a good read:

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legi...der%202004.pdf

I think this falls in the same aspect as knowingly breeding a "kinked caramel" or a "spinning spider". If the trait is not known to be inheritable, then what's the problem with it? (rhetorical question, not trying to hijack here..)

The fact that hybrids can be healthy is not the issue, I don't think. The main issue with hybrids is... well, take the Angolian Ball. It LOOKS very much like a straight Ball... Heck, even the regular Angolian Pythons look kinda like Balls. So if you are known in the industry to own one, and you produce a new morph... people are going to wonder if you actually created a new Hybrid... not really a new morph.

Just my thoughts on the matter...

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Couldn't that same argument be made against keeping any non-native herp in a captive collection? The possibility of escape and inter-breeding with native species, "mucking up" their gene pool?

So if you were anti-hybrid based on that argument, when you boil it down to nuts and bolts, wouldn't you also basically have to be against keeping most herps in captivity for the same reason? Or at least very selective about what herps you'd allow kept in what areas geographically?

Just some food for thought. :carrot:

-adam

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Adam brings up a great point.

Designer Morphs with multiple recessive alleles if released back into the wild would likely have just as much "detrimental" on the gene pool as any hybrid.


If your against all hybrids, then you probably should be against producing any designer morph.


Now with that being said, I'm not for all hybrids or all morphs.....I'm only for a vast majority of both of them....


I am against propagating any morph or hybrid that has gross health problems, such as the unproven Derma Ball Morph I read about yesterday....this snake has no scales or heat pits.....if this trait is genetic, I would think this trait would be tremendously stressful on a snake...like breeding a blind dog....

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Adam brings up a great point.

Designer Morphs with multiple recessive alleles if released back into the wild would likely have just as much "detrimental" on the gene pool as any hybrid.

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You missed my point completey. My point had nothing to do with designer morphs ... my point is that if you're going to be against hybrids AND use the argument that they could escape/be relased into native populations and pollute the gene pool, then you would either also have to argue that keeping ANY herp in captivity that could inter-breed with the local native population should also not be allowed ... or you would be incredibly inconsistent in your argument and hence baseless. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

I am against propagating any morph or hybrid that has gross health problems, such as the unproven Derma Ball Morph I read about yesterday....this snake has no scales or heat pits.....if this trait is genetic, I would think this trait would be tremendously stressful on a snake...like breeding a blind dog....

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What gross health problems does the Derma have exactly? It hasn't even reproduced yet to know if the trait is genetic? Are you referring to the so called "lack of heat pits"? You should probably read up on your snake physiology a little more. That statement is a bit like saying that a snake without a tounge lacks a jacobsons organ. The derma is eating, growing, and breeding ... I'm not sure exactly what "tremendous stress" that snake has. What did you read yesterday to make you believe that Justins animal has "gross health problems"? Have you spoken with Justin about the animal or seen it in person?

Are you really forming an opinion based on an internet posting by someone you don't know that may or may not even have factual information about the animal?

-adam

Uh oh! Here comes the derma ball debate!

I think in the case of the derma ball, or any other hybrid or morph, if the animal seems to eat, grow, and otherwise live a normal life doing whatever it is snakes do to pass the time, its okay in my book in the hands of a responsible keeper.

Just from poking around on boards and whatnot...it looks like the derma ball is doing just fine. Thats not the first scaleless snake either...there's been rattlesnakes and rat snakes that have shown up scaleless, and live normal lives. If the keeper were to release them to the wild...its the keeper that should go in the freezer, not the animal!

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Designer Morphs with multiple recessive alleles if released back into the wild would likely have just as much "detrimental" on the gene pool as any hybrid.

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LMAO....i just got the picture of someone with a bumblebee spider flying to Africa to set it free! You have to consider where 'wild' is for these animals. I don't see anyone going to Angola to release an Angolan python hybrid ;)

I do not think that the 'released back into the wild' situation seems realistic when discussing any non-native species like pythons and boas. The majority of the pythons and boas kept in the US would quickly 'die off' once exposed to winter conditions....the exception to this is Florida...ha ha..and even in Florida...you could actually look at morphs as a preventative to invasive snakes.....how hard would it be to spot burms in the everglades if they were all albinos??