Pied-$$??

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

I think what some of you are forgetting is that not everyone who sells is a big breeder. If Adam is selling a pastel for $1200, and I want to sell one just like his, I cant list it at $1200 or people will buy his instead of mine, because of his reputation, and it is well deserved.

The problem is, I have 3 snakes, and still need to sell mine. So instead i sell mine for $1000. I dont have the rep, I dont have the fancy boxes, but I'm still an honest guy, so Im hoping to at least get near market price.

Would you consider that undercutting? Or trying to make a quick buck? I wouldnt.

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I absolutely would.

I am by no means a big breeder, but I price my animals the same as all of the "big guys" because that is what they are worth. I didn’t have a “rep” on day one, and I didn’t drop my prices on anything to “make a sale” … instead, I worked my A$$ off!! … I MARKETED myself and my business, I got out onto message boards and gave solid advice based on my experience, I spent hundreds of hours on the phone helping people out, I went to shows and introduced myself to all of the big breeders, I read literally a hundred books on sales and marketing techniques, I stayed up some nights until 3 and 4 in the morning working on my website … I busted my hump to build my company into what it is … I the 3 years since I started “8 Ball Pythons” I’ve come a long way, and I still have a long way to go, but I got here by putting in the time and the work, not by undervaluing these animals to make a sale.

If a seller has to cut prices to make a sale, they are doing it wrong. When two gas stations are across the street from each other, do you see one dropping their prices daily in order to get more customers than the other? … Nope, the prices are basically the same, but they compete by offering more to the customers that do come in (car washes, convenience items, etc). That’s how businesses are run. If in the real business world, companies kept dumping prices in order to move product, the economy would shut down … cars would be $50.00, airline tickets would be a nickel! Only in the snake world do people have this “I’ll keep lowering the price until it sells” mentality and it’s ridiculous.

The ball python market does not have to be a fad, or a flash in the pan. This could really be a long term sustainable market that makes EVERYONE involved in it money for the next 20, 25, 30 years. The people that are coming out each year dropping prices for no other reason than another breeding season has passed or because they “need” to make a sale are just shortening the life of this market for everyone. They are turning what could be a long term sustainable income for everyone into a few years of making a quick buck. It just doesn’t make sense to me and what baffles me even more is that more people don’t get pi$$ed over it.

If you are producing these animals and you have to lower your prices in order to compete, you are doing something wrong. To me, that’s a garage sale or flea market mentality and not how professional business owners get it done. I’d have to ask, why do you “have to” make a sale in the first place? Everything sells in time, you just have to be patient. Maybe it’s because you’ve over extended yourself getting into ball pythons and the only way to stay above water is to dump on the market that you are so desperately trying to get into? Maybe instead of betting the farm on ball pythons you should have gotten in more slowly and learned the ropes, established yourself in the market place, and then spent the big bucks?

Lastly, and the thing that I am most passionate about when it comes to pricing on ball python morphs is customers. When any breeder is selling high dollar ball pythons (from pastels to lessers to lavenders), their customers are “investing” their hard earned money with that breeder. Those customers are investing that money with the same hopes that the breeder had when getting into ball pythons … to potentially make a little bit of money doing something that they love. When a breeder is selling those animals to an customer/investor and undercutting the market, they are really ripping that customer/investor off. They are saying “look, I don’t care if you make money or not when your animal is ready to breed because I need this sale” …. Because the reality is, if the breeder is pushing the market price down because they “need the money” or because they “can’t compete” with other breeders, they are hurting the long term value of that morph. When that customer/investor finally gets that animal up to breeding size and produces their own offspring, the babies will be worth less because the breeder that they purchased from was a part of the tidal wave of “desperation” that pushed market prices down faster than they needed to go down. And then when the customer is selling babies and competing against the breeder that they bought from, chances are, that breeder will undercut their own customers in order to make a sale.

This is CHESS, not CHECKERS! … Think long term … ask yourself, would you rather make a little money over a couple of years or a lot of money over a couple of decades! … Don’t put yourself in a position that you “need” to sell anything! … Instead of investing every last dime you have each year on morphs, invest some on morphs and put some in the bank to cover your feeder bills, taxes, financing, etc for the year … That is how REAL BUSINESSES work! … Be a real business and help EVERYONE make money!

SnakeySnakeSnake, other than answering the question that you posed, this post wasn’t directed at you, so please don’t take it that way. I am just expressing my views on the market in general and how some people behave in ways that hurts us all. Take your time and understand the market and you’ll do fine with your endeavors.

-adam

Couple more thoughts here and btw this is a fascintating thread folks...I'm loving it!

What good does it do a breeder to publically devalue his snake like this. One day it's "oh this is a killer pastel it's easily worth $1,200!!"...next day..."well it's a pretty decent pastel...how about $800???"....finally..."anybody want this pastel by Friday for $500.00!" What does that tell me as a consumer/potential buyer about this breeder and this snake that I'm investing our hard earned cash in? Like Adam said, I will have to look at whether I feel confident this person will be there for me and sorry folks but desperation scares the willies out of me. I like a bargain as much as the next person but I'd rather work with a reputable breeder whose in it for the long term and if it costs a few bucks more, so be it. Quite honestly it seems most of the decent breeders are quite happy to work with newcomers like Mike and I to help us get the snake that we can afford and that will work best with our future breeding dreams. They may even give us a deal as a repeat customer or part of a group of snakes purchased, but that's part of the good relationship with your breeder and is done in a businesslike, private manner.

Example....we badly wanted a male pastel from 8Ball last summer. Due to issues with Mike's health at the time and budget constraints we ended up not being able to swing it. Because Adam works with us and is a decent person whose passion for his snakes is equal to his business savy, he suggested other alternatives, worked with us and eventually we happily purchased our 100% het albino male from him. Now we could have raced out and bought the first bargain basement male pastel we could find off KS, or we could have over-extended ourselves on a pastel from 8Ball if Adam was the type to push and oversell his snakes without regard for his customer. Instead we talked with Adam, taking into consideration his advice, our goals and our budget. You can be quite sure we'll be a repeat customer. We like the feeling that our not very expensive het transaction was treated with as much respect, professionalism and followup as any $25,000 Lesser. Somehow I just don't see that happening with a buy it now!....quick!...it's on sale!!!!...sorta deal.

The fact is the old adage about getting what you pay for is as true in this ball python world as it is anywhere else, perhaps even more so. Quite honestly we feel that we got more than we paid for! LOL

Oh quick thought on us small time home breeder people. I bet Mike and I will be doing way more trading with other folks at the same stage as we are over the next few years than we will be doing outright sales to the general public. We might do our little private sales/deals between ourselves to help each other. This is about community and growth and supporting our future market. We aren't in this for the quick buck either.

That's great advice, Adam. The thing that you haven't touched on, though, is that sooner or later you will have to lower prices. If I tried to sell a Mojave a couple years ago for $15K and it didn't sell, I doubt I could sell it today for the same amount even if it is grown. The big breeders adjust their prices every year, and the little guys have to fall in line with that no matter how much they want to keep their prices up. Plus with more and more little guys breeding, they are putting more lower priced snakes on the market.

It is a game of chess, but you can only sacrifice so many pieces before losing position. Service counts for a lot, but prices factor in as well. Most consumers will look at the entire package and not just service or prices.

Isn't selling a particular product below market price inorder to get rid of competion a violation of trade regulation law in most states? Any one Law savy wanna correct me if I'm wrong?

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Originally Posted by xdeus

If I tried to sell a Mojave a couple years ago for $15K and it didn't sell, I doubt I could sell it today for the same amount even if it is grown.

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Why weren't you able to sell it in it's second winter at 700 grams for 15K? I almost bought a breedable male mojave last summer for 13K ... nice one too ... so depending on your time frame it would have been easily doable.

But you're right, it would probably be hard to get 15K for it today, but if it was a male and bred for you this season, even 3 clutches of 18 eggs and 9 mojaves would be worth $31,500.00 (I have no idea what mojaves are going for so I'm guessing) ... the $31,500.00 (even if you had to pay $1000 a piece for 3 normal girls to breed him to in the fall) is an even better return than that 15K ... and the market for mojaves is much larger now than it was a couple of years ago.

If that animal was a female and you bred it back to your original mojave, then you potentially have a white snake ... worth a few bucks more than 15K.

The reality is that if you produced a mojave a couple of years ago and it was priced at 15K and didn't sell as a hatchling, it would have sold as a breedable male in it's second winter at around that price. There'd be no need to dump on the prices each and every week to sell it as a hatchling because adults always sell and they always sell for more.

-adam

Really interesting posts, guys. This is great reading...=)

My two cents is you get what you pay for - a quality product from a reputable seller who's gonna be there for you is well worth it, whether it be ball pythons, computer parts or even kitty litter (I'm having kitty litter issues, but that's another story =P).

A cheap deal is a gamble - it may work, but if you loose, then you have no right to complain.

Great thread and points from all participants.

I am also thinking about the breeders who don't have the room to house the results of what they thought would be "a great dinking project". Here they are trying to move below market value these BP's with very little attention, much less care because of lack of planning and they are running a business right???? KS ad: "Need to sell, moving onto other interest". Oh yeah, I'm really convinced I need to invest here!!

As mentioned previously (in a nut shell), You get out of it what you put into it. "Plan, Prepare and Pace yourself". I won't sigh or worry too much about the "delta" between what I paid for a BP in year 1 vs. the current price in year 2 of business. I care about the quality, integrity and dedication a business owner has towards his/her product and the service delivered to the customers. Best of luck to all with what ever your endevour may be.:)

My :twocents:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You've made a great point.

If a seller has to drop prices and under cut the market out of desperation, what do you think that seller is going to do if something happens during shipping and the snake shows up dead? How about if your "cheap" investment dies 3 days after you get it, or shows up with RI?

Do you think it will be easy to get a refund? Or do you think that the seller is going to b!tch and moan and avoid your calls because he "needs" that money?

-adam

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IMO, this is where dealing with someone honest/reputable is worth every penny you spend! This could be a small or big breeder! I don't judge a breeder based on how many snakes he/she has or how much they sold last year. There are a lot of part time/small time breeders out there that care a lot about their snakes and take great pride in them as well as stand 100% behind what they do.

If someone is selling that $5000 snake for $3000 because he needs $$$. My concerns would be like Adam mentioned "what happens if something goes wrong in shipping, it arrives sick, doesn't eat or dies a week later?". Will he refund the $3000, will he pay the vet bills, will he take it back? What are your chances of getting the seller to support you financially, when he needed the cash and probably spent it the day he got it?

I'm not much on expecting any special tips or tricks, but I would expect the seller to stand behind their animal, product, and guarantee 100%!

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Originally Posted by iceman25

Isn't selling a particular product below market price inorder to get rid of competion a violation of trade regulation law in most states? Any one Law savy wanna correct me if I'm wrong?

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You're assuming the guy doing the undercutting gives a hoot. Odds are they aren't a registered business, don't have proper permits/tax id etc.. If you can't establish they are a legitimate business it would be tough to prove they are undercutting with the intent of "getting rid of the competition" when they aren't oficially in competition with anyone.....

I've read all the arguments, and the problem is the market breaks down... There is no reason why you should be able to buy a snake at $10k, and in one year have bred it to 10 normal females (lets say 500 each), and end up with 25 babies also worth 10k...

Thats $250k worth of snakes for $15k of investment and a year of work....

There is no way that is sustainable without a growth of 15-20 fold each year... Breeders are saying that such and such a snake is worth $10k, but then someone turns around and sells it for $5k, and doesnt take a loss, but probably makes $4k easily. Sure it isn't 9k, but they set their price in order to get a sale.



Does anyone here really think that someone buying a $10k snake and 10 females of breeding size should be able to make a few hundred thousand in one year of work? It just doesnt make sense.....

Pricing lower than the "bigger" names, is not an example of trying to make a quick buck. It is called recognizing the market, recognizing your position, and adjusting your prices to reflect the value that consumers are willing to place on your snake compared to that of a larger breeder's snake.

It is obvious there is a lot of flex-room in the market if people are able to sell at such low prices.... Heck, if I bought 5 breedable male pastels for $5k total, 100 normal females of breeding size for $40k total, and then had good luck at breeding and hatching, I could end up with 100 clutches of 6, avg 3 pastels per clutch, looking at 300 pastels, half female half male.

150 males at 200 each
150 females at 500 each

30k and 75k... so by cutting prices to the bone, I could be up 60k (minus the cost of breeding, food, housing). And that is just in the first year... the second year that would all be profit, and I could cut my prices further.....

This shows you were the BP market could go.... if high dollar investors got into it and were just focused on making a quick dollar.... I really hope that doesnt happen, because then it will take the fun and ability for everyone else away, as what was once considered a good sized breeder became small in comparison.

So anyway, Im probably off on 99% of what I said, I would listen to ANYONE but me about this, as I have no real applied knowledge on the BP market, and on what some people can or will do.