Are BP morphs the next "dot.bombs"?

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Originally Posted by gamebred26

DEMAND..... enough said...what kind of demand is there for a 10-30K plus snake...for a pet ....none...

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What is your obsession with "for a pet"? How about this question... How much demand is there for a $12000 trained German Shepherd or Lab as a Police/Seeing Eye/Service Dog to the general public as a pet? Not much I would assume. But does that mean that dog schools aren't still pumpin these highly trained, and highly smart animals out... to THOUSANDS of people on waiting lists, and police departments?

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Originally Posted by gamebred26

So low end would seem to sell easier...right?..pastels...albinos....etc.

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Depends on who's buying them I guess.

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Originally Posted by gamebred26

Okay...everyone and there sister is breeding those...prices are dropping...you can get a pastel male now for under $500 some places...breed it to your normal females....and the market is flooded....

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You're still not grasping the whole "Geo Metro vs Porshe 911" $500/$1500 price difference in the animals you'll pick up for $500. Do you think that the "average" person will buy that $500 animal, raise it up to breeding size, and eventually breed it to another pastel.. make a super, and sell it for cheap cause they got their animal for cheap?

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Originally Posted by gamebred26

How many pinstripes...fire.....ivory..bumblebee....clown....are being sold for cash as pets? ...to an "end user".....not many...

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Not trying to beat a dead horse here... but if I want $20k for my bumblebee.. and Joe buys it for use in his breeding program, whats the difference if I want $20k for it, and John buys it for use purely as a pet? If I wind up with $20k in my pocket... I don't think the market really cares (other than the animal's health) who it's going to, or what they're going to be using it for.

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Originally Posted by gamebred26

I do not know one non breeder who owns any of those morphs....and the ones that do all traded animals for animals...or animals plus a little cash....

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Okay.. maybe this will help out a little bit. I got into this a very short time ago. I bought a BP form a pet store for my girlfriend. I didn't care, I didn't touch.. all I did was feed because she couldn't handle the feeding aspect. Then I started to do some research, and now I have 15 BP's, and a plan for three times that many before I ever experience a breeding. I don't own any of the super-high dollar morphs, but I have spent an INSANE amount of money getting started in the long process of raising up females.. and yes.. I intend to breed. But my orriginal BP was bought without that intention.

I've been in several Doctor's/Lawyer's offices that have large saltwater setups.. with thousands of dollars in fish/ocean life in them. What's to say that in 10 years, there won't be a couple of very nice morphs sitting in the office waiting room. It's an extreme waste of cash in my opinion... but so is the ferarri in the parking garage across the street....Doesn't mean I don't want one though!

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Originally Posted by gamebred26

DEMAND..... enough said...what kind of demand is there for a 10-30K plus snake...for a pet ....none...

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What is your hang up on this "pet" thing? Anyone spending 10k -30K on a snake is making an investment ... just like buying stocks, or bonds, or commodities. They are investing the money on the speculation that the cash outlay will result in financial gain. Does anyone buy shares of Google because they need a piece of paper?

That said, the DEMAND for snakes in that price range is HUGE. Everyone I know operating at the higher end in this business has shelled out that kind of CASH many times over. I know I certainly have (and have made it all back too! ;) )

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Originally Posted by gamebred26

Okay...everyone and there sister is breeding those...prices are dropping...you can get a pastel male now for under $500 some places...breed it to your normal females....and the market is flooded....

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You must be fairly new to the businesses of high end animals and investing. I've been around ball pythons for many many years and every year people run around like chickens with their heads cut off yelling about how the market is about to be flooded and that prices are crashing, etc .... It seems to me that most of those people don't even own morphs and are more trying to convince themselves that they aren't stupid for passing on an opportunity to make money.

The reality is that of course as supply increases the price comes down, but if you read and understood my original post on this thread, you would realize that in any business venture that is a possibility. A smart business person diversifies their revenue streams and plans for the future. If you were making good money selling pastels and your margins are starting to decline, you adapt, you start producing super pastels that are still selling for $5,000 - $7,000 each (not bad for a market that is flooded eh??). The person that invests in something like a pastel or an albino and just sits on their a$$ while prices naturally go down and cries about it really had no business investing in morphs in the first place. I said it before and I'll say it again ... If you're going to invest in ball python morphs to breed and sell than you are a business owner ... ACT LIKE IT!

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Originally Posted by gamebred26

How many pinstripes...fire.....ivory..bumblebee....clown....are being sold for cash as pets? ...to an "end user".....not many...

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Why would they be? Your logic is lost on everyone that is reading this thread. These animals are being sold as INVESTMENTS. To use your car analogy, how many Ferrari Enzo Coupes are being sold as daily drivers for $645,000 a pop? None. To compare high end investment ball pythons to “pets” just doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by gamebred26

I do not know one non breeder who owns any of those morphs....

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Do you know why? Because if someone spent that kind of money on a snake and didn't breed it and produce offspring in order to capitalize on the hottest animal market in history they would be an IDIOT. ;) .... People that have that kind of cash to drop on an animal aren't dopes ... they have that kind of disposable income because they know how to make money ... so when they buy and investment animal, that's what they do .... MAKE MONEY.

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Originally Posted by gamebred26

and the ones that do all traded animals for animals...or animals plus a little cash....

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Trades, cash, it's all part of the business. If you're really a student of the industry and have a little bit of business sense about you, what you'd actually pay attention to is the money flow into and out of the ball python trade. Every year NEW MONEY comes into ball pythons ... it seems like every summer we see a new upstart breeder or two that invested big dollars for their morphs and are beginning to make a name for themselves ... because they had no animals to start with, these people didn't trade for their animals, they spent money .... the other thing to look at is people leaving the hobby .... How many high end collections have gone up on the classifieds in their entirety in the last 10 years? ... I can think of one maybe two. Every year people are spending money to get in and then spending more money/trading in order to stay in and grow their businesses … AND NO ONE IS LEAVING! This is a positive trend that cannot be ignored. The ball python market is strong and people are making a lot of money!!

It seems to me, the only people that are crying about the market are the people that don't have the balls (aka ball pythons) to be in it. :twisted:

-adam

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Originally Posted by gamebred26

It's just like baseball cards they ain't worth **** unless someone is willing to pay cash...

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Whether someone is willing to pay exuberant amounts of money for a snake or not does not make them worth "deleted expletive." I know many people personally for whom snakes are their entire world. They would give their lives up to them before any human beings.

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Originally Posted by gamebred26

the value that people are putting these animals is insane....

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And why shouldn't they? Some people dream of buying an expensive car or a home, while others dream of buying that wonderful morph.

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Originally Posted by gamebred26

plus no body is buying them anyway...

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Just because you do not know anyone who has bought one does not mean that someone out there doesn't own one or won't be willing to shell out the money to acquire one.

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Originally Posted by gamebred26

if you are looking at this for a return you are kidding yourself....it's an expensive hobbby nothing more....

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Ok just because you think that paying large sums of money for a snake is ridiculous does not mean that you can dictate the same terms to someone else. Judging from the contents of the post you seem to think that everyone else should be thinking the same way as you do. Learn to respect peoples boundaries and more importantly their passions.

gamebred26's posts seem to be similar to a topic I was reading over at another place. Anybody else feel me *cough*.

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Originally Posted by bigboyslims

You might want to study some more about monopolies before the midterm....This market shows no sign of a monopoly.

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Nah bro no need to study anymore I already busted an A in the class. I must have known a little about what I am talking about. When you have a small number of producers of a good in a world market they can act as a monopoly. There does not have to be just one seller of a good for that particular market to act as a monopoly. Besides being a monopoly isn't a bad thing if it was acting like one. Because as I said before even if the market is a monopoly they still cannot dictate any price. The market is only going to pay so much for a good, and its obvious BPs are not overpriced. Since they are selling then the prices are good. Who knows there may be some unrealised income in some of the morphs.


I think BPs are a good investment, and awsome hobby. I'm not estatic about shelling out that kind of cash to start with, but with a good breeding program that money can be recouped. I have no doubt with this global market we are in. There is no boundries with the internet.

Might I add that even though many people are getting into breeding there will probably never be such a thing as a "common" morph...

Sure, for those who know ball pythons at a level slightly higher than as a basic pet owner (ie people who read about their animals on sites like this!) will know that while albino BP's are the most common, they are not everywhere in the pet trade and they are not exactly cheap....

I would like an Albino BP, prices are higher here in England though, so I will wait till my hets are old enough and breed my own....!

My other point, one I didnt really notice being made was that demand always seems to outstrip supply because BP clutches are not very large.....

just my .02 as i suddenly took interest in ball pythons with my GF's snake...

i dont think gamebred26 has ever heard of hollywood... the place where people will buy snakes for just show....

also, i wouldnt say that morphs are the driving profit.

its like going to a Chevy dealer, they want to make money. so the up the price of a Corvette Z06 to 105k (MSRP of 65) to drive foot traffic because they have one in stock, and are the only one in the area. now, they have people coming in JUST to look at that car. while there, they realise, hey they offer nice cheaper cars... like a normal BP. or a more inexpensive morph... and they purchase that on a whim... how much profit is in that cheaper car? not as much, but because they have the more expensive item, they just got a "conquest" sale, or a sale to someone who just wanted to see a snake, but ended up buying one.

morphs i dont feel will ever be the DRIVING force, the nomals will always be cheap and easy to sell. and thats what you need. the $40 snakes, that cost $10 to breed, and then you just have a $30 profit, which you sell say 30 of a quarter, thats just 3600 a year on cheap ones.

im assuming with a large collection you can obviously have more than 30 normal BP's a quarter.

i kind of get your drift, but raising and breeding and selling takes more $$$ and hard work and PATIENCE than you think.


vaughn

This is a crazy discussion, I think it is obvious that breeders are buying now, they have to in order to continue to come up with new morphs and add to their collection. You do realize breeders have snakes that they dont sell? That they use primarily for breeding, and keep year after year.... they may not be a pet per-say, but they are part of their personal collection.... so they might as well be.

I plan on getting into breeding to start a collection if I make money, I will probably turn around and put it back into the BP market.... I know a TON of people who havnt been introduced to ball pythons, let alone their morphs... people who see their morphs don't even realize that such color/patterns can be produced....

Eventually prices will go down, 30k is crazy for a snake, but not when you can use it to create a whole line of snakes that are then sold to create another line.... but when prices go down to $500 for a lot of the morphs (already nearly has for pastel males), then you dont think people will buy them?

$500 is a lot for a pet to some people, but to others their dog cost 2k, their cat 750, and a unique pet for $500 isnt a stretch.


I don't see this 'dot.com" dying down until the majority of morphs and combinations have been explored (which should take a while)... however I was not involved in this when the economy went down, which would probably stifle interest among smaller time breeders/new to the game people who don't have extra money to try something on the side

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Originally Posted by Nourdmrolnmt1

also, i wouldnt say that morphs are the driving profit.

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As someone that breeds and sells ball pythons, I would say the exact opposite. Morphs are my profit. I don't breed to produce normals, the margins are too low and they take up valuable room that I need to house morphs. The lower end animals that I produce as a result of co-dominate morph breeding are a hassle to try and sell because my entire business is geared towards selling investment animals, not pets ...and you know what? Business is GOOD! ;)

Use your chevy analogy and imagine that everyone that visits that car lot is begging to buy a corvette ... how long do you think it will be before the dealer starts looking for ways to get rid of the cheaper cars quickly so that he/she can start filling the lot with corvettes?

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Originally Posted by Nourdmrolnmt1

morphs i dont feel will ever be the DRIVING force, the nomals will always be cheap and easy to sell. and thats what you need. the $40 snakes, that cost $10 to breed, and then you just have a $30 profit, which you sell say 30 of a quarter, thats just 3600 a year on cheap ones.

im assuming with a large collection you can obviously have more than 30 normal BP's a quarter.

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$10 to breed? LMAO! Do you have any idea what it takes to feed a ball python 52 weeks a year? How about rent for a commercial breeding facility because 500 ball pythons won't fit anywhere inside your house? Then there's payroll, utilitiy bills, vet bills, and then TAXES!!!!! Not to mention that selling normal ball pythons for $40 each when the CH imports are coming in for $7 - $10 each isn't a whole lot of fun! Sorry, but I don't know anyone that wants to work as hard as it takes to maintain a ball python colony (we're talking hundreds and hundreds of animals) just to produce normals.

The demand for MORPHS is strong!

-adam